899100+ entries in 0.632s
Namworld: You're saying you
trust
the issuer
to not issue more
than what
they can back, and
that you'd be willing
to bet up
to X on
that.
ericmuyser: then
that person
they
trust is
the one
taking
the loan with
the other guy
ericmuyser: or
they
trust someone who
trusts
that guy
mircea_popescu: but! you are in effect saying you will
take X of
this person's issuance with no backing.
Namworld: The problem is no one else recognize
these IOUs unless
they also
trust
the same guy.
Namworld: It depends... basically if you
trust someone for let's say 1000 USD, you're saying you
trust
the person not
to abuse
the issuing IOU feature AND you're willing
to risk up
to 1000 USD on your belief, as such if
the issuer is abusive, you can lose no more
than 1000 USD.
mircea_popescu: ericmuyser i kind of suspect you're not quite qualified
to discuss systems.
mircea_popescu: i mean, remember
that guy issued like 10k btc of debt
to dozens of people didn't know about weach other ?
Namworld: No,
the
trust level is just how much money
they owe you you can
tolerate... not
the
total
they issue... sadly
ericmuyser: mircea_popescu: you're
talking about loans and interest?
mircea_popescu: you don't
trusty him with 10k out ofg 100 bn. you
trust him wioth 10k
total.
mircea_popescu: the way it works now, he can make 100bn and just give you 10k of
that
mircea_popescu: Namworld but can you enforce
that much is how much
they make ?
ericmuyser: and i dont want my friend giving away my money
to a friend in need
Namworld: Actually you can
trust each issuer for a different amount...
ericmuyser: I would like
to see approval requests/convos and whatever else. i
trust a friend with 100 but i want
to review what i'm
trusting him with and for what, if it's a good reason etc.
chad6: any
theories for
the recent run-up in
the price of N
mircea_popescu: irl
trust is always
to something. i
trust you
to suck my cock, but not
to bake me a pie.
mircea_popescu: whether i make 100 or 100 bn dollars, you've
trusted me already
mircea_popescu: as far as ripple is concerned, you
trust me, end of story.
ericmuyser: mircea_popescu: i do not
trust you at all.
furuknap: Exactly. So, for anyone other
than currency
traders and speculators, I can't really see any benefit
to Ripple. It doesn't have value beyond
the value of a stamp, it doesn't solve any problems
that haven't already been solved, and it's just another headache for users when
they want
to just pay
the damn bill at
the restaurant.
mircea_popescu: ericmuyser
the unsurmontable problem is
that ripple
trust is blind
Namworld: Then we can just send
that around
Namworld: That's not really because it wouldn't be great
to easily move fiat around. It's because fiat holders are AML regulated.
kakobrekla: yeah like banks
trusted
that ppl will repay
their house loans or smth
ericmuyser: i
trust he has
the fiat and when i make
the exchange he will give it
to me IRL
furuknap: Sure, but if I get a $1000 IOU from BofA, I can sell $124 of
that without having
to get BofA
to issue a $124 and a $876 IOU.
ericmuyser: i would
trust my friend has 100 bucks at any point
to lend me, so i add him
to my
trust network
mircea_popescu: <Namworld>
The issue is, Ripple is just plain stupid... <<
the more i learn about it
the righter
this seems
ericmuyser: i can go on
there and say i have a million dollars or 100 baseball collectors cards, and you can say you
trust i have
them and what you value
them at
ericmuyser: furuknap: if an exchange or another person
trusts you
furuknap: But
these IOUs are fungible, right?
ericmuyser: I heard
they intend on allowing more strict IOU configuration but I have no source for
that
furuknap: I
think anyone who issues bearer bonds?
Namworld: But again, it's kind of absurd... because it skip every darn anti-money laundering stuff. What kind of institution would start issuing IOUs on Ripple
they can't
track, and let anyone cash
them in?
furuknap: Well, I'm officially, completely, and utterly underwhelmed.
Thanks for
the explanations, guys.
Namworld: Could be used as a cement between various IOUs, since it might be hard
to find a
trader
to
trade your IOUs for another specific IOU
ericmuyser: whatever you call it, it's not used in
transactions directly but
that is
the plan
furuknap: Yeah, which is exactly what I'm
trying
to avoid by using BTC.
Namworld: Trade your USD IOUs from Bank of America for XRP, use XRP
to buy fiat from some other bank. Redeem fiat at 2nd bank.
ericmuyser: currency for what? it's being converted as a currency on an exchange but not used in
transactions
ericmuyser: Namworld: because at some point
they expect people
to have a wallet of xrp of course,
the same as btc. but
they could make payments from
their ripple wallet using btc. either way, you're in ripple world
ericmuyser: it is built
to make
transactions, but it's currently only an exchange because no one has adopted it, in
the same way no one has adopted litecoin - is litecoin a currency?
Namworld: wait what? It's in
the grand design? Why would people make payments in XRPs?
furuknap: So... One more question... If
they are
tokens, why does it matter
that
the founders premined and kept XX%
themselves? It's like having a gazillion postage stamps
that can be used only
to send mail but with no other value?
ericmuyser: and
there's no reason you can't, it just hasn't been built yet
ericmuyser: but I
think it's in
the grand design
to use
them as payment
Namworld: When
they're meant
to be
tokens
to make
the
transactions
furuknap: Holy fuck. And we're blowing ourselves over
that? Why not just use BTC or LTC or whatever? Geez.
Namworld: A currency exchange which skips banks and other
things
furuknap: Hang on... Is
this just an elaborate currency exchange?
That's it?
Namworld: It's a platform
to move money around
Namworld: Ripple is not made
to make purchases
Namworld: If both were issuing fiat IOUs on Ripple, people could
theorically
trade
those on Ripple
furuknap: Why would I want
to
transfer my money
through an exchange? I just want
to buy a cup of coffee or
tip
the stripper...
Namworld: Suppose you want for example
to withdraw USD from Gox
to get USD on BTC-e where BTC is cheaper.
furuknap: And
that's where it all falls apart for me...
Namworld: Because
transfering money from one exchange
to another can be hard if you want
to avoid fees for example.
furuknap: And you have
to
trust
that issuer. I understand so far. I just don't understand what it gives me as a normal person, having X of currency Y, beyond
the ability
to change X of Y
to Z of W.
Namworld: and
then cash in
those IOUs at
the issuing bank/exchange/whatever
Namworld: People can
trade IOUs from Issuer X for IOUs from other issuers
ericmuyser: furuknap: it's an exchange and it works well
to get people OUT of fiat. otherwise nothing?
Namworld: Ripple is not a currency. It's not a
type of money. It's a platform.
Namworld: But
that's a complete money laundering headache
furuknap: So... I start with 1 BTC. What benefit will Ripple give me
that I can't get form just having and using my BTC?
Namworld: Ripple can render fiat
transfer easiers, by allowing fiat from Bank/Exchange X
to be
traded with someone else for fiat from Bank/Exchange Y.
Then each can instantly deposit
the IOU at
that bank.
ericmuyser: banks work on IOU's. people give loans
to eachother. ripple is real life, without
the cash in hand
Namworld: They can't
track who
traded
the fiat and just add it back
to an account? AML clusterfuck
furuknap: Yeah, because why would I want
to do
that? I could just
trade it for USD or any other currency.
Namworld: You could
trade one exchange's fiat IOU for another exchange's other fiat IOUs
Namworld: Since all virtual currencies can be just sent directly
to
that other exchange
Namworld: You could, for example,
trade a Gox 1 BTC IOU on ripple for 130 USD IOUs from BitStamp with another Ripple user.
furuknap: So... You run exchange X and I buy an IOU from you
to sell it back
to you? In other words, a plain, regular loan?
Namworld: since you can deposit
this IOU at
that exchange for BTC or USD or whatever
Namworld: It's worth something if
the IOU issuer is an exchange, like BitStamp for example
furuknap: I still don't get it. I get an IUO from whom and why could
that be worth squat
to me?
Namworld: All money on Ripple is just IOUs... you have
to
trust certain issuers... which
tends
to be exchanges... which
trade virtual currencies and fiats...
furuknap: They'll shortly be upgrading
the wikipedia article
to list Crypto-Trade as a
typical example.
furuknap: Ever heard
trhe
term vaporware?
furuknap: Wow. Crypto-trade may actually launch in less
than 24 hours. I'd buy shares, but I can't seem
to get my jaw back up from
the floor.
Namworld: and
they're not really being sold
Namworld: The
thing is, XRP isn't really a currency. It's
tokens
to make
transactions...
mircea_popescu: i'd blog about
that retard but
the problem is
the 1% idiots
that read
trilema and don't understand wtf would probably
triple his
trafic
mircea_popescu: (and he was
the "auditor" in
the 1st mtgox heist, incidentally)
mircea_popescu: Ripple is led by Jed McCaleb (founder of MtGox, eDonkey) and Chris Larsen (e-loan, Prosper.com), both successful businessmen who do not have an interest in sullying
their good name