898900+ entries in 0.657s
Namworld: I can't get BitStamp's IOUs or withdraw anything without
trusting BitStamp IOUs
Namworld: [22:53] <Namworld> I decide
to
trust BitStamp's IOUs
jborkl: that defies
the laws of physics
jborkl: and ripples are destroyed in each
transaction
Namworld: How is it limited
to how BitStamp works?
jborkl: why i dont want your IOU for a cheeseburger,
thanks anyway
Namworld: Wheres BitStamp redeems
their own IOUs
Namworld: I
then send BitStamp IOUs
to BitStamp, including my BitStamp account # in some field
mircea_popescu: Namworld well ok, so
then you are copiously unqualified
to discuss how ripple works lol
Namworld: Ripple executes
the
trade, I get
the guy's IOUs, he gets my XRP
Namworld: Then I proceed
to check
the XRP
to BitStamp BTC orderbook
jborkl: ripple did not create any value, or
take any effort
to create.therefore in a proof of work/effort concept of monetary supply is worthless
Namworld: I decide
to
trust BitStamp's IOUs
Namworld: Mr. Idiot gives BitStamp 5 BTC. BitStamp gives
the user a 5 BTC on Ripple, issued by BitStamp.
dub: you were just
talking about gateways and IOUs in
the last sentance
Namworld: That's what I'm saying, for fuck sake, when did I included ripple in all
this?
dub: bitstamp matched
the
trades
dub: ripple had nothing
to do with it
dub: idiot gives 5btc
to YOU, you give him 40k xrp
Namworld: User uses BitStamp as a gateway. He gives bitstamp 5 BTC, which
then gives
that person a 5 BTC IOU issued by BitStamp.
dub: Namworld didnt extract 5btc from ripple, he extracted 5btc from
the idiot via bitstamp
Namworld: Either she's holding IOUs accepted by someone else (like Bank of America USD or whatever) and someone wants
those IOUs in exchange of
the BTC, or someone must
trust her directly
to issue IOUs
dub: I
think you're
talking about different
things, Namworld is still
talking about some idiot paying 5btc for his ripples while mircea_popescu is
talking about how ripple works
Namworld: That's not how it work...
the only way
the little girl can
take
the 5 BTC is if she
traded something for it.
mircea_popescu: so, little girl
takes out 5 btc for her dad's 40k ripples.
mircea_popescu: if you were able
to
take out y's 5 btc in exchange for x's 40k ripples
Namworld: He didn't
trust
the little girl
Namworld: Which is impossible if he never directly
trusted said person as an issuer
Namworld: In #3
the guy in
the cab realizes suddenly he's holding valueless USD issued by a little girl
mircea_popescu: so
then how exactly is
this diff from
the guy in
the cab.
mircea_popescu: you don't even know who
the fuck y is you have his btc
mircea_popescu: you
took Y's lunch in exchange for X's scribbled paper.
mircea_popescu: thus
there fore wtf you on about. it's exactly how you witnessed it
to work
Namworld: I
trusted Bitstamp as an issuer.
Then
traded
these XRPs for BitStamp issued BTC IOUs
mircea_popescu: were
these 5 btc put in by
the user you got your ripples from /
Namworld: Or any sub party assigned with
the
task of distributing
the ripples around
dub: from
the ripple
teat
Namworld: From
the giveaway
thread, as I said.
Namworld: That's not how I understand and witnessed Ripple
to work.
dub: this is another one of
those Namworld conversations where we wax on for hours about how when one looks up
they find
the sky and shockingly upon looking down observe
the ground
mircea_popescu: this is how
things work. social graphs degrade
towards
the edge
mircea_popescu: is
that his cook knows, and
the cook fucks
this girl on
the side who's owned by
this guy who owes me a carrot.
mircea_popescu: listen,
the way i find out what
the president of
the republic ate
Namworld: So people must be careful about
the issuers
they
trust? If you decide
to
trust some random guy for 10000 BTC and
take his BTC... of course Ripple will show you have 10000 BTC, but
try
to
trade
those with anyone and no one
takes
them.
Namworld: But no one will accept it if
they don't
trust
tradefortress as an issuer
Namworld: He shows
that he can have a 1 billion BTC balance by issuing it.
mircea_popescu: how did
the
tradefortress guy manage
to cause all
that havoc
Namworld: Maybe if I had a more complex
trust network...
mircea_popescu: cole_albon no, i meant
the naive stone age "free rate repo" system
Namworld: One BTC issued by Weexchange.co is different from 1 BTC issued by BitStamp. If you have 1 BTC issued by BitStamp, you can't
trade it for someone wanting a Weexchange.co BTC
Namworld: I might be mistaken... but I didn't notice any such chain
trust effect
Namworld: As for #3, I
think you got your facts wrong...
dub: its not like you would be handing
them money without
the intent
to use
the market
Namworld: Well yeah... access
to market is
the only
thing
that is given in exchange
mircea_popescu: anyway, moral of
the story here being, "don't start revolutionary financial shit without an actual financial mind available
to suckle on
the cock of"
Namworld: Plus
they'll even charge you when you do stuff with your funds on
their system
dub: they give you access
to a market for one
Namworld: dub, pretty much every exchange.
They won't give you anything for entrusting
them your funds
mircea_popescu: and will be raped in
the mouth just as soon as someone cares
to.
mircea_popescu: the real reason however is
that
the system doesn't work
bdk_kluge: They expect gains in
terms of service. In
the US, interest-bearing demand accounts are practically dead.
They pay out in service, usually ~1.5-3% of deposits on overhead.
mircea_popescu: the developers stupidly assume
this happens because never before have
there been on
the face of
the earth genius developers
to make a ripple.
Namworld: Other
than being able
to request
their funds back
Namworld: Well history shows people are
trusting 3rd parties with
their funds all
the
time, expecting nothing in return.
mircea_popescu: to rephrase : do you have an inkling of an idea what
the 2008 meltdown would have looked like if indeed repo was free ?
mircea_popescu: but! when i accept
this, i undertake someone's CP risk
Namworld: So
typically people wouldn't expect interest.
Namworld: Well it's pretty much
the same. Bitstamp is an issuer on Ripple. You either have a number on BitStamp or on Ripple of have X of currency Y owed
to you by
them.
mircea_popescu: if
they credited my acct with ~300 bux for every 100 deposited i'd consider it.
mircea_popescu: Namworld i wouldn't deposit money in mtgox because
the mtgox risk requires a premium
Namworld: So you wouldn't deposit money in MtGox because
they don't pay interest on your balance?
dub: presumably
the entry/exit points
to
the network charge for
the service?
Namworld: The difference is you expect
the bank
to invest your money round and make money on
that.
Namworld: The same apply for both
thing, and often
the
trusted issuers are an exchange (at least for now)
Namworld: Those IOUs are no different
than
the balance at
the exchange, which if it is showing 200 BTC, it means
they owe you 200 BTC.
They don't pay interest either on
that balance. Same for Ripple IOUs.
mircea_popescu: the fact
that his debt is accepted is exactly giving him money.
Namworld: Where
those paper IOUs are practical
to go
trade around without
the need
to burden yourself with carrying money all around
Namworld: To be fair on point #2,
the issuer doesn't get anything either out of
the issued IOUs. It's not like it requires you
to lend
them money. It's more like "pay
to
the bearer X silver/gold coins" IOUs, like early banks did, before state money.
mircea_popescu: [\\\] he's
the only person afaik who seriously looked at
the
thing