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snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-23 05:56:34 spyked: upstack re erlang: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930095 <-- imho doesn't sound bad at all, given that e.g. feedbot threads communicate exactly through this type of message queue. meanwhile, I notice that there's a "lisp-flavoured erlang" dialect on teh interwebz, but no idea if worth looking into it

billymg: re: blog work, i'm about to head out for the weekend, back early next week. i'll be able to bang out some more test coverage based on mircea_popescu's spec on the trip and put together a status/roadmap post when i get back

diana_coman: feedbot is extremely useful to track all the comments + posts, basically I switched all to it and it's working great so far; there was the deluge of the after-break stuff coming in today but it's not a big issue (and it didn't choke on it either so all good)

diana_coman: mircea_popescu: come to think of it, the "cloud of tags" is the closest thing to the above in that it changes indeed as content is added; I don't recall if it provides direct link to articles but at least it reflects the content as is

diana_coman: arguably there are all those projects (like perseus even, perhaps?) where they worked precisely on "lots of digital content how to make it digitally-useful" but I am not aware of something that translates directly

mircea_popescu: but personally, i'm waiting for billymg to emerge, out of his current work. if nothing's clear by then, we can hack. but before, no real benefit, all downsides.

mircea_popescu: i suppose nobody wrote enough since the dawn of the digital age for this need to appear and be conceptualized

diana_coman: by writing that article I add to the knowledge my blog reflects i.e. to my public knowledge if you prefer

diana_coman: yes but I don't see the problem with that

mircea_popescu: diana_coman, i mean, that by your writing article 19, the tags of article 2 change

diana_coman: they do, as they reflect the material put in; but I don't see a problem with a third person deciding to categorize trilema with whatever tags they think greatest and provide the resulting tags + links as their view of it, what

diana_coman: mircea_popescu: I agree re categories and tags; fwiw I also think that tags should reflect the material as it was put in; basically if one wants to categorize content differently, then they can make their own manual/automated/mixed/whatever tagger and apply it, providing their own view of the content

mircea_popescu: i dun really see any other workable approach.

mircea_popescu: search words are "i know the searcher but not the material, here's soem clues' whereas tags are "i know the material but not the seacher, here's some clues"

mircea_popescu: eg the trilema article i quoted above : i had fully forgotten about. not in the sense that i don't recognize it when i see it, i do, but in the sense that when i penned http://trilema.com/2019/black-or-white-the-day-of-saturday/ which needed it, i did recall to put it in. i've meanwhile corrected this and added the link, but i am certain there's THOUSANDS of such "actually mp, the item you'd link here is this" "oh shit you

diana_coman: I would start with something rather simple indeed; and review it, initially it's really a sort of learning wtf in there because I have no idea atm how useful the tags produced would be

mircea_popescu: i confess among the papers on my desk there's some various aproaches at word-distance and otherwise auto-tagging

mircea_popescu: diana_coman, yeah i think he's working on it.

diana_coman: tbh with categories also I start wondering if it's working at all or in fact it's still tags more useful anyway, without the pretense of neat and strict classification

diana_coman: mircea_popescu: I do; and a few other bits that are on the list to change but on which I kept thinking "there will be a mp-wp theme" and then can tweak; hm, who was it, billymg ?

diana_coman: aha; but atm at least I can't seem to find it either, sadly

diana_coman: hm, I *do* remember the idea but not having properly ranted on it (granted, I tend to forget it if I have a good rant over it, lol)

diana_coman: I don't even remember myself ranting on it, huh

spyked: upstack re erlang: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930095 <-- imho doesn't sound bad at all, given that e.g. feedbot threads communicate exactly through this type of message queue. meanwhile, I notice that there's a "lisp-flavoured erlang" dialect on teh interwebz, but no idea if worth looking into it

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-22 23:59:49 trinque: if I'm going to bolt znc to it, what point has a lisp bot?

spyked: aite, I'll do that

mircea_popescu: this understanding is current as of cca 2016. meanwhile we agreed that because a) it is preferrable to work with republican rather than imperial items and to prevent more imperial seepage than needed ; and because b) there's no limit to signature count as per long standing observations and discussions (with a very early asciilifeform cca 2013 maybe) then therefore the correct approach is to sign things early, to get them i

spyked: mircea_popescu, as I understand the meaning of signature is "I understand how this thing works". if I sign it before reviewing it, there's nothing to show re. my understanding. am I getting this wrong?

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-22 21:38:59 trinque: more broadly, the question isn't so much what I could do with whatever IRC bot, it's what the hell should motivate me to sink more time into shit caked atop the thing I wish to see end.

spyked: mircea_popescu, I completely agree. fwiw, I can genesis hunchentoot next thing if somebody asks for it. but would rather have the thing reviewed first, a propos of: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930229 . IMHO gotta document it, so that I don't make the same mistakes when I attempt a sane http replacement

spyked: I'm still testing this in #spyked, it seems to be working so far, e.g. >1wk uptime for test-spykedbot: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/spyked/2019-08-23#1000120

spyked: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930228 <-- until I get proper patches published, here's an idea: 1. abolish "ping-thread" from ircbot; 2. instead, set up a ping handler for the bot, and have it respond with pong; this has the disadvantage that there's no more lag tracking, but it's simpler. proof-of-concept patch: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/LohMF/?raw=true

spyked: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930226 <-- to be clear, discussion was re. rss bot, which is built atop trinque's bot. I made the mistake of having a long-running operation on the main bot thread, which is the same thread that handles pongs and does lag tracking. imho the fault was 100% in the feedbot coad, but if deedbot

mircea_popescu: spyked, i'm starting to suspect, incidentally, that no cheekiness is involved, he simply never saw either instance, does something like two hours/week keeping track of things, and if that week has 25 hours' worth of logs and developments, well, gets 8%. hey trinque, are you current with the logs ? how descriptive is that model /

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-22 23:59:49 trinque: if I'm going to bolt znc to it, what point has a lisp bot?

mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930233 << i dun really get what this is about, but anyways.

mircea_popescu: i don't intend to negrate him, as things stand, so you're more than welcome to explore wonderful world detailed in the further paragraphs of that comment.

mircea_popescu: "Needless to say, I am unamused ; and, to answer the original inquiry in firmer terms containing no ifs or buts : no, I personally have no further interest in hearing what phf may have to say on any topic. The time for "ok then, I will get my logger to spec by X date and hope to have my blog up by Y date" came and went, sometime yesterday.

spyked: *since I was here

spyked: but decided to answer your q first I was here and prolly keeping you waiting would be frustrating

mircea_popescu: i'm guessing i'll get to it later lol.

spyked: mircea_popescu, I was processing logz myself at this very moment, lol :D

snsabot: Logged on 2019-07-25 03:30:20 spyked: trinque, could you pl0x share the ircbot auto-reconnect code that you're testing? I wanna give it a spin myself and give some time to ironing out whatever problems I might find.

spyked: mircea_popescu, tbh I find that to be a particularly cheeky question, since I asked him the same on more than one occasion and was greeted with silence.

spyked: mircea_popescu, yes, sorry for the confusion. the plan is to: post hunchentoot ep. 6 today, as per plan; and as september begins, post the plan for next month, which should include all the new things I'm working on (code, reviews of code, whatever arises in the meanwhile)

mircea_popescu: now help me out here. is the answer "late aug/early sept i will publish my sept workplan which'll include a date at which i intend to publish the answer to that q" ?

mircea_popescu: look, it's no great mystery i don't think, but in any case, here's what i do : i read the log, line by line, in order. currently i'm processing line http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930228

spyked: mircea_popescu, no. feedbot is patched upon ircbot, not genesized (as per earlier log discussion), i.e. http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/08a-feedbot-i.html ; http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/08b-feedbot-ii.html ; http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/08c-feedbot-iii.html ; this was planned to be the complete code, but sure, I'm testing the changes that I made and will publish a patch for it.

spyked: there is a longer term plan that I have at http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/090-tmsr-work-ii.html , but experience shows that usually changes.

spyked: well, I made the last and only mod to it since http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/08c-feedbot-iii.html yesterday; I am going to add it to the queue as it comes, right now I'm sticking to the current plan.

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-22 21:48:34 trinque: the thing's literally built atop tcp which supposedly has "connections" and it wants this ping/pong mechanism atop. ask me how many more hours of my life I wish to dedicate to this duck cunt that just wants a bit more.

mircea_popescu: spyked, you know, it occurs to me your workplan is fundamentally weak in that it includes no "will genesis material / publish patches". am i guessing right in that the next edition, seeing how week 35 is just about the corner, will include prior plan performance review and that ?

mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930218 << nah. notice how these didn't exist on trilema except when specifically quoted. i let it go in eulora intentionally.

trinque: if I'm going to bolt znc to it, what point has a lisp bot?

asciilifeform: lobbes: aha. i made no attempt to clean out the spamola, it will remain unless mircea_popescu asks ' drop xyz where... ' etc

lobbes: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930218 << 'tis mircea_popescu's chan, so his call. Though I imagine there is reason to keep them (e.g. maybe one day in the future someone wants to make a post re: "hey remember how IRC sucked?"). Point being: it was logged, so it is in the logs.

asciilifeform: trinque: re 'irc, wish to see end' -- i also balked, but turns out even this chore had some interesting wtf-discoveries lying in wait, e.g. the apparently massive nonflatness of net lag topology

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930234 << near as i can tell , mp drilled him a new arse and consigned him to штрафбат for cowering in a cave for yr+ , rather than for sitting in hospital. ( see also mp's 'nickel' article )

asciilifeform: trinque: i cannot resist to wonder if the problem is in the hoster -- iirc deedbot used to stand up for weeks at a time , in earlier days

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930229 << ftr i agree entirely with this , but -- did write bot, when mp blew into the bugle, sometimes gotta be done

asciilifeform: trinque: i may be able to help w / bot ( would like a working cl bot at any rate ). how current is the published src ( that i used in pehbot ) ?

trinque: the thing's literally built atop tcp which supposedly has "connections" and it wants this ping/pong mechanism atop. ask me how many more hours of my life I wish to dedicate to this duck cunt that just wants a bit more.

trinque: more broadly, the question isn't so much what I could do with whatever IRC bot, it's what the hell should motivate me to sink more time into shit caked atop the thing I wish to see end.

trinque: do I start railing back about how this merry band is still relying on freenode for infrastructure or what

asciilifeform: thinkin' about it moar -- mircea_popescu et al, if you wanna nix the spamola, simplest way is to import the db and sort the users, there's i think 100 or so spamola nicks , could simply drop'em if want.

asciilifeform: archives remaining to import : #a ( if ben_vulpes turns up, i'd like to use his mimisbrunnr log to close the gaps; otherwise will use own znc ) ; #p ( again ditto )

snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-15 21:23:52 asciilifeform: 'I mean literally, the guy's from Washitistan, they write things with their own excrement there, and the Unicode Foundation introduced actual excrement in the standard so now whenever someone asks for the networking code in your project they are delivered physical faeces on cardboard. About fifty eight acres of it. Where would you like this put, sir ?' (tm)(r)(mp)

mircea_popescu: though this comes at cost of complexity. imo only correct approach is to have this set ~at kernel compile~, and there it stays. if you declare I 16kb and O 2mb, then therefore your stretch factor is 256

asciilifeform: it seems like the obv. Right Thing. i.e. let tetris read from urandom, rsatron -- from random, etc.

asciilifeform: ftr this is how i formerly thought the existing linux worked.

asciilifeform: then makes sense. i had missed 'stretched by...' when 1st reading.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, they are allowed to read I. that blocks.

mircea_popescu: if that one byte is not yet available, from I, then the HG (good hash) will take half the O that was already read, and replenish it

mircea_popescu: but let's try it again. so, the I buffer is 16 kb, the O buffer is 2 MB. if the FG spits out 8kb/s or so, then the I buffer spits about 8kb/s or so into O, after the first two seconds,

mircea_popescu: you, stanislav, asked "where is the shop". i told you "go this and therefore" and you came back with "but where is the shop". at this point, this question can not be answered, BECAUSE YOU, STANISLAV, DO NOT READ.

asciilifeform: i'm stumped on what 'can not tell you, because you do not read' means in physical terms.

mircea_popescu: dude, I JUST EXPLAINED IT ABOVE

asciilifeform: i.e. eggog ?

mircea_popescu: i can not tell you, because you do not read.

asciilifeform: so, in mircea_popescu's model, i asked for 3MB, while FG has only produced yet 2MB. what do i get ?

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, only applicable re I. O, never blocks, because H.

mircea_popescu: but use my formalisms. so what, I is 16kb and O is 2mb ?

asciilifeform: then i'm defo thick. let's work example ? machine booted up 5min ago. ergo primary FG buffer contains ~2MB. now i'ma a user, and i ask for dd if=/dev/random of=foo bs=1M count=3 , i.e. 3MB. nao what ?

asciilifeform: possibly i'm thick, but what happens if particular user requests continuously ?

mircea_popescu: that's why i say o is up to swap size. ti should be large enough to not be emptyable.

mircea_popescu: this way - O is "always full" from the pov of userland ; I is protected from userland reading O.

mircea_popescu: the operation then consists of : 1. FG -> I.W 2. if I.W = I.R, I.R -> O.W, such that if O.R >= O.W/2, next O.W goes through HF filling many offset bytes ; if O.R <= O.W/2, next OW goes through HG, filling one offset byte.

asciilifeform: the 1st half of this , i get, is same as what i sketched. but for what is the outer buf ? seems like a single ring of same length as the 2, gives same effect ?

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930033 << naively seems to asciilifeform that whole thing oughta be replaced with a single ring buffer, where 1) root can write 2) users can read (w/ settable max byte/sec quota/ea. perhaps) 3) erry read consumes a segment of the buffer, i.e. no 2 users get same chunk of FG tape 4) if buffer empties, machine goes into single-user mode and rings alarm .

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i keep coming back in my notes to the swedes, simply b/c in their notation, a 'bulletproof' net of mutually-synchronized bots is suddenly ~trivial.

asciilifeform: if the 'silent wedge' effect actually exists (rather than , say, an artifact of trinque's async mechanisms) i expect it will eventually be found to wedge

asciilifeform: spyked: mine disconnects strictly when a send() or recv() actually return eggog (i.e. indicating dead tcp pipe)

asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-22#1930066 << ftr i've yet to observe this 'silent wedge' effect in my bot (i.e. where the tcp pipe is 'alive' but not doing anyffin useful). tbf it is, what, only 3rd week of this bot.

snsabot: Logged on 2017-03-30 10:50:38 asciilifeform: trinque: erlang wasn't simply about 'uptime', or even 'no pointer arithmetic', it also was the only case i know of where process migration actually worked

asciilifeform: 'erlang' was ultra-fascist 'functional' , i.e. even to make variable in the usual sense is difficult

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i've a pile of'em in notebook, but generally dun like to throw in unless pertinent to thrd

mircea_popescu: this is the first time i hear of some actually useful lisp improvement

asciilifeform actually has working copy of that compiler, 'erlang' , from 2000s (i.e. before the webtards got to 'improving' it) if anyone at some pt wants to experiment with this particular sunken uboat