751500+ entries in 0.475s
moiety: mircea_popescu: and
they are so ugly. what ever happened
to aston and jaguar
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I
thought
that
the signing
thing was a natural step away from an offline wallet?
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves actually it became feasible
to extrude complex conical surfaces.
ninjashogun: so if you could make it so dumb
that
the user just
thinks of it "as a wallet" with "bitcoins in it" and
takes it out
to spend from it.
ThickAsThieves: right but havent
things become more about cutting costs as
time passes?
ninjashogun: It seems for
the bitcoin device
that you guys were building (asciilifeform)
the real money is in making it SO dumb
that
the user doesn't have
to understand how bitcoin, signing, or a wallet works.
mircea_popescu: moiety yeah now everyone makes porsches, from bmw
to mercedes.
moiety: even more of a side note -- i
think it's a real shame loosing
the individuality and decorativeness of design :( cars is a good example!
ninjashogun: There is actually one
take-away from
the above insights
that mircea_popescu 's quote led
to here.
mircea_popescu: even
the cars look increasingly more like
they came out of a vulva.
ThickAsThieves: for example, where do you find people
to make intricate wood carvings?
mircea_popescu: moiety i would say in present day considerations shoving
the items is more of a concern
moiety: so mircea_popescu,
ThickAsTheives, can we conclude modern day styling is getting more minimalistic and less decorative because people are lazy/no servants/no
time?
ninjashogun: asciilifeform,
they pay extra for a GUI, instead of enough for someone
to do it properly.
ThickAsThieves: mostly
the expense comes into play when
they choose expensive smooth surfaces
ninjashogun: asciilifeform,
that
they pay EXTRA but becuase
they're not actually having someone competent do it.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform,
that is EXACTLY my point. Exactly
that.
ThickAsThieves: if anything, it's certainly cheaper
to make simple stuff
ozbot: Main/The Roaring
Twenties -
Television
Tropes & Idioms
benderp: $20/each for a hundred little gui utilities
that'd be a 1-line
benderp: users' is
the nickel-and-dime chumpatron where
these folks pay
benderp: <asciilifeform> afaik
the only software
today 'specifically
targeted at mac
ninjashogun: the
top one is a good example. Dreamweaver.
moiety: ninjashogun: ok ok i clicked and i give up on any article
that begins: "have you ever felt like......"
ThickAsThieves: <mircea_popescu> (Side point- Art Deco's fascination with streamlining household objects whose actual wind resistance is irrelevant proved popular because levelling incomes led for
the first
time
to a group of people who could afford good design but not household servants. It seems
that a streamlined Art Deco lamp is easier
to dust
than a frilly Victorian one...) /// Nonsense.
ninjashogun: benderp - it may have been a bad example. I mean if you survey
the software
that's specifically
targeted at Mac users.
benderp: what are
these professional
things
the macintosh consumer software enables?
benderp: everyone i know who can afford a macintosh pays an accountant if
they're not on salary, ninjashogun.
ninjashogun: if you look at mac software ,a lot of it is aimed at letting people do
things
that ordinarily you would hire a professional for, and not at a professsional level.
ninjashogun: wn software - but not enough
to hire full accountants and managers
to do
the same work!
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, you can also see a lot of
that in Apple computers. For example,
they are supposed
to be very "easy
to use" (yet are expensive). But
this hides
the fact
that a lot of people use it
to run accounting software
that's also dumbed down
to
their level, and a load of similar extra-expensive
things
that let
them manage
their lifestyle. It's becaues
they make enough money
to buy Macs and
to buy expensive dumbed-do
mircea_popescu: (Side point- Art Deco's fascination with streamlining household objects whose actual wind resistance is irrelevant proved popular because levelling incomes led for
the first
time
to a group of people who could afford good design but not household servants. It seems
that a streamlined Art Deco lamp is easier
to dust
than a frilly Victorian one...)
moiety: ok? i did see you linked
that
ninjashogun: No,
to an article. I didn't comment on it.
moiety: youre definately
the loudest ninja i have ever met!
ninjashogun: davout - but you can't just call it debt if
they're not going
to do it. For example,
the fact
that Python 3 isn't source code compatible with Python 2 isn't
technical debt
that
they're postponing. It's a design decision.
davout: ninjashogun: precisely because of
tech debt
ninjashogun: davout - I don't necessarily call backwards compatibility "improving
their OS". In fact, in many cases compatibility and objective improvement are at odds.
davout: ninjashogun: "improving
their OS" and "creating a new solid OS" sounds like a difference in degree, not in kind
Perlboy: microsoft basically dropped
their pants license wise.
ninjashogun: davout -
that is a fairer example.
Their backwards compatibility is a 'debt' because
they are actually
taking it on as a commitment. It's clearly a slightly lower debt
than
they would have if
they had a goal of creating a real operating system like Unix and BSD's
davout: ninjashogun: for
the rest
there's mastercard
davout: ninjashogun: it can be debt in
the sense
that
they have
to keep backwards compatibility up
to some level
Perlboy: and
they just replaced
their core banking with windows+mssql end
to end
ninjashogun: davout -
that is
true. I
think Microsoft isn't selling
that migration path
though :)
Perlboy: Yeah, i know at least one bank
that has moved
to 100% Windows.
davout: ninjashogun: except if you're considering
the expense of
time required
to switch useful applications
to better OSes
ninjashogun: davout - on
the other hand if your prototype is pyrite and you're prototyping a gold bracelet (the way many startups prototype an MVP
then intend
to build scallability)
then it can be considered a "debt".
Perlboy: which fwiw you'd have
to have anyway regardless of os
ninjashogun: davout - just like, if you make a bracelet out of pyrite, you do not have
the "debt" of whatever it would
take
to re-make in Gold. You just have a pyrite bracelet.
moiety: ninjashogun, dear, when you begin by
talking about incompetence of managers and people
that make food... you cannot really switch
to a whole company
that is comprised of millions of
them. #consistency
ninjashogun: davout -
that's silly :)
The
term "technical debt" is an analogy, i.e. you get features now but at a commitment of future
time. If
that future
time is not a real commitment,
then
there is no actual debt involved.
Perlboy: umm, so,
there's nothing wrong with windows being used for all banking applications
ninjashogun: Most people,
that is, except for
the millions of people using
them
to withdraw money.
davout: ninjashogun: just because you're never going
to repay it doesn't change
the nature of a debt, it's still a debt
ninjashogun: Another example is ATM's
that run Windows. On some level
that is such an obvious display of incompetence
that it should make most people here shiver.
ninjashogun: davout - I don't
think it's
technical debt if it never needs
to be fixed. Windows was never refactored onto a rock-hard Unix base with proven open
technology stacks. Nor will it ever be. You can't call it debt if you're never going
to do it.
Perlboy: otherwise
their upgrade would be less expensive (ie. apple mac osx :))
Perlboy: unfortunately microsoft isn't motivated
to do something forever
moiety: i
think its
time
to break out
the alcohol or sanity pills or something
Perlboy: hack it
together and we'll have
to rewrite every X years
davout: ninjashogun: you may be confusing value with
technical debt
Perlboy: so it's
the age old opportunity cost
thing
moiety: asciilifeform! i used gribbles lasers!
they were required
Perlboy: ninjashogun,
true, but
then it's been rewritten what, 4
times now (3.11, 95, XP, 8)?
ninjashogun: moiety I
think windows is a fair example because everyone here knows hte obvious ways in which it sucks :)
ninjashogun: That WITHOUT sarcasm, in fact
those architects (the
totally incompetent windows ones) have built immense value over hte past
thirty years.
ninjashogun: But on
the other hand, millions of people use Windows for hours every day, and have used it
to run most aspects of
the economy.
benderp: and yet ninjashogun
those are
the 'architects' out
there in
the wild, delivering value by your standards.
ninjashogun: Look, I know
that on some level what you say make sense. For example, on some level Windows is completely broken in every single conceivable way and has had
the opposite of architects working on it for
the past
thirty years.