log☇︎
68300+ entries in 0.039s
phf: i suspect you might discover it to be same kind of situation as tinyscheme
asciilifeform: and sbcl aint it. i'd prefer something like kyoto, or which ever was the absolute shortest that implemented whole standard, for starting point
asciilifeform: prolly the eventual Right Thing will be when we proclaim a republican cltron and start massaging it to eventually climb to that level.
phf: yeah, pretty much. a totally different experience from, say, sbcl, and a lot closer to a real lisp machine too. comes with all the things builtin, so you never really need to touch outside world
asciilifeform: so he never had to eat the compat layer liquishit.
asciilifeform: my impression was that allegro did 'all them things not in the standard' and actually did them well.
asciilifeform: and it , afaik, worked 'like white man's tech' or near.
phf: well, after reading the CADR documentation, source code and generally spending more time on a lisp machine, i realized that modern common lisp is a cargo cult. i'm not sure how naggum didn't see it, but possibly because his lisp was emacs/cmucl/franz
asciilifeform: right, they're mostly skins on sbcl, to the extent they work at all
phf: but you would never know, because in sbcl it generally does the right thing ☟︎
asciilifeform: it's actually one of the reasons i haven't ever finished rewrite of phuctor in cl. erry time i sat down to do it, barfed on one of these things
phf: one of the major wtfs when reading asdf code, is that when all the ifdef's fall through, hte system falls back to some seriously questionable solutions, like shelling out to unix level with elaborate commands (i don't remember the example, but it's almost like "mkdir {} && cd ..." type stuff)
phf: asciilifeform: well, a portability layer is the ultimate ifdef, and in this case worse written by somebody else
asciilifeform: ( prolly The Right Thing then is to write own compat layers. for errything. but only 2 hands,sadly )
a111: Logged on 2018-10-15 00:17 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-13#1862183 << no, i don't use portability packages in my own code (they are the hole through which the darkness comes), and when something pulls it as a dependency, it comes from quicklisp
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-15#1862519 << i dun want to marry sbcl.. is this so much to ask ☝︎
asciilifeform: phf: imho it is retarded that packages can conflict
phf: (btcbase uses 0.8.5, though i might have an older version somewhere on backup drives)
phf: out of curiousity i went through the log, and bordeaux-threads had that bt nickname pretty much since creation, in 2006
a111: Logged on 2018-10-13 23:31 asciilifeform: !Q later tell phf wouldja happen to have a frozen nonretarded version of bordeaux-threads somewhere ? the one i have, is utterly sad, squats nickname 'bt' which prevents binary-types from working...
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-13#1862183 << no, i don't use portability packages in my own code (they are the hole through which the darkness comes), and when something pulls it as a dependency, it comes from quicklisp ☝︎☟︎
BingoBoingo: hanbot: Thank you. I haven't found anything promising here yet.
hanbot: BingoBoingo re remittance shits, i found something here, going to investigate tomorrow if it'll do .uy; will update.
lobbes: eventually will take it offline and merge its data into this new bot, but that is later
lobbes: for the time being, the legacy auctionbot (lobbesbot's !Qauction) will remain up and running as well
lobbes: I will be monitoring it to make sure everything is running smoothly. Let me know of any funkyness
billymg: BingoBoingo: ah, that's good to know
BingoBoingo: billymg: With mp-wp the three most common sources of headbanging are: file and directory permissions, .htaccess (if running apache), and pressing into a populated direction (As in you press, aren't sure anything happened and press again into the output directory without cleansing it; prevalence of this one depends on particular v-tron used))
billymg: about to step out for a bit but have been keeping notes and will put together a writeup after mp-wp is successfully pressed/running
trinque: billymg: hold onto that new ebuild for cuntoo. ☟︎
billymg: trinque: thanks for the tip about custom ebuilds. was able to do a local ebuild of the libmcrypt dep by taking what was in upstream and just changing the EAPI version to 6. installed fine, and then php-5.6.38 went fine as well
a111: Logged on 2018-10-12 18:18 asciilifeform: the 1 'litmus test' i was able to think of , is the 'i pick a block hash and you gimme the block in <1s' algo.
asciilifeform: the particular experiment here is a node exerciser, rather than block eater, in cl
asciilifeform: ( recall, i have my own working block eater in ada, posted last yr, but currently was looking into 'binary-types' in application to btc trad encoding )
asciilifeform: dun need to be battlefield-grade, simply wanted to see how ben_vulpes did it, ty
ben_vulpes: apologies for the stink
ben_vulpes: i'm sure that i did but cannot recall where immediately, sec
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: unrelatedly, didja ever post yer cl block/tx eater src ? i seem to recall that you did, but can't presently find in l0gz
ben_vulpes: fence is done, transpocubes for possesions arrive tomorrow. house still unleased and one car yet needing transportation scheduled. other than that, girl and child fly out soon, and i drive out with dog shortly before.
ben_vulpes: i've since just cut over to using postgres' own godly datetime knobs because a) better in every way b) works with timezones trivially
a111: Logged on 2018-10-14 18:06 asciilifeform: i'd eventually like to be rid of asdf tho.
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862478 i lost a few hours to cl-postgres/postmodern/simple date over the past two months; there is now some cl-postgres-simple-date-glue package that needs loading in order for postmodern to use its local-date set of classes. once upon a time loading simple-date after cl-postgres was enough to get the mechanisms in place. ☝︎
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-12#1861273 << largeish place, live music of poor quality on the first floor, asciilifeform and i had the top balcony to ourselves for an hour at least ☝︎
asciilifeform: i'd eventually like to be rid of asdf tho. ☟︎
asciilifeform: trinque: unrelatedly, i resolved the binary-types thing, will eventually genesis a working ver.
trinque: (also will no longer suffer from pages being overwritten due to same fp, since dupe fp is banned)
trinque: wot.deedbot.org will update too before long
trinque: purged a few pieces of technical debt lingering from the rapid prototype I built during the schism. sorry to have made you a casualty of the purge!
trinque: got the note back in there now too
trinque: Mocky: herp, wrong db. it's there now.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-14 15:44 trinque: Mocky: yep, looks like I trashed it, and I see no corresponding !!unrate. restored. I will make sure there were no other dropped ratings.
Mocky: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-14#1862360 >> does 'restored' mean it should be in there now trinque? I don't see it. ☝︎
asciilifeform: this is prolly as far as the analogy goes, so i'ma leave it there.
asciilifeform: but let's suppose utkin had instead built a rocket that occupies all but one metre of standard rail car. i suspect that it would not have been received warmly by the brass, and at the very least they'd ask why, 'what will go in that free metre of car ? tinned fish ?'
asciilifeform: it destroyed tracks.
asciilifeform: and notably, by some accounts the 'distribute the mass' gizmo did not actually work very well, hence why the thing was eventually scrapped. ( and not because 'usa asked eltsin nicely', as was the popular legend at the time )
asciilifeform: ( tho expensive. )
asciilifeform: ^ the gizmo on the right, was a hydraulic thing to push any electric wires above the tracks, out of the way. whole thing was pretty clever.
asciilifeform: on 1 occasion it was found necessary to build a icbm rocket that is too heavy for 1 car. head designer v. f. utkin found solution, he had a system of springs to distribute the weight between ~two~ cars. this is analogous to udp fraggism. ☟︎
asciilifeform: best analogy, imho, is sov train carriages. it is possible to make train carriage of many lengths, but they had 1 . so if cargo were smaller, it'd get packed in with other things, or sometimes partially empty car, but short car would not be specially built for shorter crate.
asciilifeform: ave1: there is not much to be said further re subj, i looked into what actually comes out of my lan, it sends 1500 frames upstream always. ☟︎
ave1: btw, I'm still interested in the single size ethernet packages (I propably misunderstood) but unfortunately have to bbl
asciilifeform: this is the Right Thing, i.e. if you want a variant to exist, you gotta maintain it.
ave1: Whis -> This, threes -> trees
ave1: I was still on the "automagic" way to choose either the lookup or the divtronic CRC32. Whis will never be automagic, authors just have to work on 2 different threes if they want and let the longest one survive.
asciilifeform: in orig vtron i relied on 'muscle power' to avoid this boojum, it proved insufficient; hence manifests.
ave1: yes, I know, but you asked about the senario; no published vtron permitted...
asciilifeform: ( previously it was possible to arrive at it by accident )
asciilifeform: trinque & mircea_popescu specifically introduces manifests to prevent this scenario.
ave1: the vpatches are checked on the sha512/keccak sums of the files
ave1: but p2 -> p3 also possible it seems to me
ave1: sorry p3 touches the A as it is after p1
ave1: then p3 touches A
ave1: well, if I have file A and B, and p1 touches A and B, and p2 touches A in the same way as p1 but B differently
asciilifeform: ave1: no published vtron ever permitted 'more than one possible ancestor'
ave1: with the manifest as we have now and no way to automatically merge an alternative (i.e. having more than one possible ancestor)
asciilifeform: ave1: which method is this referring to ?
ave1: hey, I was just thinking the same thing offline, so yes I think the new method is sane as it preserves authorship and no magic alternative could be inserted somewhere halfway the tree.
asciilifeform: and instead each variant is a thing that its author is forced to actually test as-written.
asciilifeform: in that it prevents the combinatorial clusterfucks that ifdefism causes
asciilifeform: it is painful, but prolly the Right Thing.
asciilifeform: and ideally erry 'alt' variant has a maintainer, who will regrind so that his variant continues to be usable .
asciilifeform: ada deliberately does not offer equiv of #ifdef, because ifdefism is retarded. so you're left with this method, afaik.
asciilifeform: and yes they'd have to be reground regularly.
asciilifeform: to bring thread back to current-day -- afaik the only means to implement alternative builds, in current scheme, is 2 (or moar) pressable leaves in erry 'release' ver.
diana_coman: I think the difference might be at whether it is "practical" or not :)
diana_coman: I can see the history is preserved angle, certainly; and a nice thing for sure; but there is a cost for it and I'm not sure the benefits make up for it
asciilifeform: that's where we differ, i think. my whole notion in inventing vtronics was to preserve all history that can be practically preserved.
diana_coman: once you bring it into your tree, you don't care about the original tree so ...how stuck? ☟︎
asciilifeform: the diff was that the history was preserved, as opposed to painted over with cut&paste.
diana_coman: and then you are stuck maintaining those multiple trees - what's the benefit in that? ☟︎
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu specifically barfed , tho, and nobody any moar does this. so for nao yer stuck with cut&pasteism, as i understand.
asciilifeform: so it was possible to write a proggy that used items from multiple trees.
diana_coman: maybe I didn't understand then what you mean by "patch that pulls in specific state from a parallel tree"
asciilifeform: author can regrind all he wants, you are not forced to regrind yours unless you think it merits
asciilifeform: diana_coman: you carry with your proggy, the specific one you built on
diana_coman: basically you introduce tree dependencies?
diana_coman: asciilifeform, trouble is - what do you do then when/if that tree gets reground? ☟︎
diana_coman: ave1, thanks, it verifies fine now!
asciilifeform: imho 'unifiers' (i.e. patch that pulls in specific state from a parallel tree) is a cleaner way of accomplishing this than cut&paste, but i was unable to persuade. ☟︎