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lobbes was dismayed when I came in, automated
a 40 hr excel proccess down to about 10mins just by using sql (access of all the god awful things) only to be told it was verboten
mircea_popescu: i am not proposing an alternative for that function. doctor isn't in the line of proposing replacement for cocaine, and from the "i wanna feel good" perspective the whole pharmacopoea is
a waste of space.
lobbes: Tis
a purely political reason, of course
mircea_popescu: and this goes directly to all the "no mp, dope totally makes you
a better thinker" threads.
mircea_popescu: yeah well. anthropologically relevant though, created
a whole identity mythos.
mircea_popescu: it's their hypercad. "When i was
a wee tyke this seemed like srs bzns"
trinque: might be
a feature (TM) (R)
mircea_popescu: and no, the excel mentiuon was not
a throwaway joke. it is factual reality, even today.
mircea_popescu: how exactly this is disbursed, whether you need rifle to hunt and then crown taxes rifles, ie, through
a technically mediated barrier, or purely conventional, is not properly speaking
a technical discussion.
mircea_popescu: essentially speaking, front running is
a natural crown monopoly, like hunting.
mircea_popescu: it's
a complicated discussion to carry in those terms.
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641453 << the hft trading folk are about as dumb as the "serious www publishing folk". the "implement from scratch" thing is
a fiction, there to justify insane and unjustifiable expense. exaclty how and exactly why any third hand "outside consultant" in third world sells random dopes on "whole new cms!!11" for their "project" so it is "for srs professional".
☝︎ shinohai still wants to see
a sword duel, failing that.
mircea_popescu: well, alfie, there could ALSO EXIST SUCH
A THING AS
A PROGRAMMABLE COMPUTER
a111: Logged on 2017-04-10 16:43 asciilifeform: sql is
a car with
a gas and break pedal for each wheel.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-10 16:25 asciilifeform: trinque ^ this is both true and imho
a serious problem
mircea_popescu: in unrelated news : me goes into shop where girl has bought nice shot glasses to buy shot glasses. "do you have these in
a box ?" "yes" "how many in the box ?" "uhh..." nicaraguan chick is very much willing to be picked up but has nfi how many shot glasses in 3x4 case.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-10 16:17 trinque: can either bitch like
a woman or fix the pain now and also move off later
a111: Logged on 2017-04-10 16:15 phf: ascii actually can criticize postgresql from the position of understanding. knowing intricacies of psql is not knowledge (rtrees, caching, etc.), it's trivia ("you have to turn lever 3 and depress button Y"). ascii knows what he needs to express, but he can't express it directly, because he's running against architectural constraints of his tool. from that perspective
a general "databases are shit" is an entirely valid perspective.
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-10#1641374 << this is
a perfectly reasonable view, and it'd carry were it not be tinged by
a history of asciilifeform on occasion producing overgeneral statements not because he ran against design constraints of the space but because he ran against mental constraints of his own.
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2017-04-10 16:07 phf: tmsr work is primarily defined by its voluntary nature, if i had to do things same way i do it at the office i wouldn't bother. ascii doesn't know intricacies of psql from his day job, and i think it's cruel and inhuman to make him study psql ~as part of tmsr work~. it's not the kind of know how you get to learn by sitting down with
a cup of tea and
a large printout..
a111: Logged on 2017-04-10 16:03 phf: trinque is the resident psql guru, he managed to wire his 50 request lisp process to
a postgresql database
a111: Logged on 2017-04-10 15:57 phf: they laughed at me when i said btcbase doesn't use
a database, who's laughin now
mircea_popescu: as asciilifeform correctly points out, there's not THAT much of
a deal to insert an article once
a day /
a comment once an hour and otherwise serve reads.
mircea_popescu: was "gauss copula" for
a while famously. was
a buncha things, i have notes somewhere.
mircea_popescu: fwiw, math finance goes through one of these every 3-4 years (ie, every time
a new crop of collegiate tards ends up dominating the hiring pool)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's
a narrow interest item, perfectly respectable in its niche. as bb says, ended up being
a sort of shorthand for internet expert in here because randos and history.
BingoBoingo: * shinohai imagines Vitalik reading the logs an thing mircea_popescu meant `Asi` is
a new groundbreaking algorithm ..... << Ass Sort Integrals, some very deep "Ito calculus"
shinohai imagines Vitalik reading the logs an thing mircea_popescu meant `Asi` is
a new groundbreaking algorithm .....
phf: apparently that's not how they do things down south. once
a grudge always
a grudge. fine. we can agree not to talk to each other at all, nor mention each others names. i was sticking to that policy, and it worked fine for me. good day.
trinque: I'm not defending every fucking "OP is
a redditard" you throw at me
trinque: that running forward with
a bare assumption and then spending the whole thread trying to smash opponent into it has been the rule with you
a111: Logged on 2017-04-10 19:35 phf: but that's
a roundabout way, and you could just read about it in
a blog. if the position is that "we should study postgresql source code extensively, as
a necessary prerequisite to writing our own database", then i would agree with you, but that doesn't seem to be what you're saying
phf: but that's
a roundabout way, and you could just read about it in
a blog. if the position is that "we should study postgresql source code extensively, as
a necessary prerequisite to writing our own database", then i would agree with you, but that doesn't seem to be what you're saying
☟︎ phf: that still doesn't answer my question, but the question is at the core of my point. you don't read existing implementations, you don't attempt to write new implementations, you're ~using~
a system that does these things for you. so what is ~knowing~ in this case.
phf: well, that wasn't
a rhetorical question, i was interested. so the second question remains, what does knowing entail in this case
trinque: what'd you expect as
a response to that first bit?
phf: i'm not sure it's worthwhile to fetishize that quality either. if you attempt to write
a db from scratch, postgresql internals is not the first place to look.
phf: in db sucks threads you necessarily talk about pain points. i don't think ~anybody~ here disputes that postgresql is
a solid piece of engineering
trinque: I'm sure I've said SQL dbs are terrible
a hundred times now.
phf: ok, i guess we both know what the problem is. my solution is "study db related algorithms until you know enough to write
a db", your solution, unless i misunderstand, seems to be "use an existing database
a lot". i don't understand how learning, say, postgresql will get you from not knowing anything about db internal design to writing your own
☟︎ phf: yes, you can't sit down with
a collection of independent algorithms combined in
a specific way and use it in
a different way without writing extra code, but that's what repl is for
phf: but i don't think that working with
a black box of rdbms will
phf: the "glue" point is
a strawman, because you don't know how i write my code. as far as problem/solution though
trinque: the database as (extremely poorly) implemented by sql rdbms is
a generalization of the glue
trinque: and not
a statement of any particular solution
trinque: that is
a statement of the ~problem
trinque will re-engage this in
a bit
trinque: say atomic writes on
a filesystem, transactional versioning atop that, ...
phf: but the reason that they don't all use sql, is because sql is really bad for certain narrow kinds of tasks and suboptimal for
a slightly larger set of tasks
phf: and you're wrong as far "everyone uses sql11". merril lynch is famous for storing massive datasets in kdb. deutsche bank uses kdb as well as
a handful of other datastores (i have some knowledge here), also two of the banks that i consulted for used object stores. that's just the projects that i consulted
phf: trinque: you've asked
a question, that i was about to answer, but it turned out to be
a rhetorical question, that you then used as
a platform to make
a political point, yes
trinque: they don't have
a billion of anything
phf: another alternative to doing the sql way is column stores (as an aside allegro cache is really more of
a column store), where something like kdb is going to be
a reference (the apl approach to databasing in general, of mmaping files with fixed size entries that you can offset into).
phf: allegro cache is actually
a lot closer to how btcbase does it, than the postgresql way. internally the two are very different. if you treat both as "
a database" you're not going to learn anything