asciilifeform: naturally, when say 'logger' mean 'human', rather than the space heater
asciilifeform: we dun have'em yet tho. and if tonight fleanode 'storm' and 9,000,000 splits, then wat.
asciilifeform: ideally would have 5-6 ~heterogeneous~ loggers
asciilifeform: which is why i put in raw-export, db dump (0 hrs / daily newyork time) etc
asciilifeform: i'd like to avoid the situation where ' asciilifeform fixed on best-effort basis, and 1 time breaks leg' and then like phf.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i'm not about to make argument 'eh i have drinking to do , rather than sync logs'. but if it takes fleanode 100msec to make a split, and asciilifeform -- 5min to fix it, this is not tenable to maintain promise of 'ultimate log'
asciilifeform: suppose asciilifeform , mp_en_viaje , and BingoBoingo , all ended up on 1 side of netsplit.
asciilifeform: this risks replay of 'clocks' flamewar, but at some pt gotta say 'this-here is canonical log'.
asciilifeform: the other side of this, is q of 'what is canonical log' . i.e. is it mp_en_viaje's terminal (runs for 3-4 hrs / d ? and where did not even notice index off, asciilifeform had to notice and ring alarm ) ? asciilifeform's term ? (runs 24/7, but down for maybe 10min / yr ) ? or dulap 's ?
asciilifeform: (and in the end still resulting in divergent text b/w loggers, as pointed out upstack)
asciilifeform: erry single incident of 'fleanode weather' can create , within <1sec, a split that -- with hands -- will take 10min (of practiced hand) to fix
asciilifeform: fleanode chan is not 'solid' object, it is a fecal object. in light of not only falling bots, but e.g. netsplits
asciilifeform: consider, erry prev. log operator has gone mad. i suspect that know why.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: re the log indices, there's a deeper q, that i'd like to lay out and ask mp_en_viaje to actually take halfhr+ to think about, with brain in full throttle, before answering, cuz it is very easy to spec this in such a way that asciilifeform's (or anyone's) pair of hands will not in fact be long enuff or fast enuff to handle
asciilifeform: could be (dun display tho, so difficult to say for fact)
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i considered also to put 'delta' integer column in the db, specifically for this.
asciilifeform: ( and is why i baked the 'raw export' knob, ideally this is to be semi-automated , i.e. logger operators oughta be able to look, compare to e.g. own local log, and resync if agree )
asciilifeform: and (contrary to what some may thing) asciilifeform is not awake 24/7 at console to turn the crank immediately
asciilifeform: this horror aint even rare exception, but as i understand has happened to each logger to date when 1) bot fell 2) folx continued to speak 3) bot stood up . i'd like to devise a deterministic algo for wat-do in such cases, they will repeat for so long as we inhabit fleanode
asciilifeform: so far mine at least not fell down, but we have not yet seen this wonder, of bot that never once fell
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i'm still waiting to hear from e.g. ben_vulpes re what he did when bot fell down, to sync the indices with phf's
asciilifeform: ( and will sign diff of affected lines )
asciilifeform: aite then will fix exactly like that.
asciilifeform: can easily do this, but does mp_en_viaje want ?
asciilifeform: then will diverge also vs all other logs (incl. folxs' local logs)
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: 'fix the refs' as in, modify stored lines ?
asciilifeform: if anyone thought 'hey asciilifeform can do in 5 days what phf did in 1yr' -- this is naive.
asciilifeform: these are complete other than the uniturd-containing emissions by lobbesbot. but result is that the numeration has diverged. ( we already discussed q of whether such divergence is 100% preventable in light of fleanode, tho , but inconclusively )
asciilifeform: well the lines from yest. lobesbot , until when i have the fix tested & deployed.
asciilifeform: ( they 'broke eater' in the sense that lobbesbot's emission was not logged; bot did not fall down and lose other lines , note. )
asciilifeform: bot ate 100% of phf's log in testing phase w/out losing lines. but lobbes in fact discovered uniturds that break py's eater. i'ma implement the fix described by phf , but the q will remain re what, if anyffin, to do re the in-between.
asciilifeform: then will nuke all the log refs since !
asciilifeform: i'ma not attempt to do anyffin about this unless mp_en_viaje says specifically what ought to.
asciilifeform: ( i.e. mine is behind by -- of last count -- 6 , vs phf's )
asciilifeform: btw dunno if anyone other than asciilifeform noticed, but on acct of the uniturd sadness, we already have diverging line indices between the various loggers.
asciilifeform: former -- 'success', a la 'lamp. latter -- 'failure', i guess
asciilifeform: read this 20y ago. and then 1 day found shop where ~actual~ industrial tooling sold. no flashing neons, in fact is unmarked hole in abandoned-looking warehouse, entirely disappears when the place is closed and the burglar grille is down. and open only 2d/wk. there -- can buy, sans plastic, actual e.g. pneumatic hammers etc.
asciilifeform: there was a 1990s piece re how chumps walk into ameri-'hardware store' and buy 'contractor-grade!111' plasti-tools that fall apart after 5 uses
asciilifeform: i recall a mp_en_viaje piece where explained which parts of vacuum cleaner are best for this
asciilifeform: oh iknow, saw 9000 times. can see anywhere. consider crapple's $100 cables .
asciilifeform: when 'be' was alive, could in fact edit film on (1990s! era) pc ! instead of on dedicated tape decks. as caught on only decade later, when microshit deemed it possible on their i-cant-believe-its-not-os
asciilifeform: today lives in kunstkammer with the other abortusen
asciilifeform: well guesswat. surrounded by microshit (with crapple as hand-puppet) lymphocytes, digested, shat out.
asciilifeform: ( on rare occasions, ends instead like bolix. but arguably similar enuff, fella who dies of heat and the other who -- of cold, still just as dead in the end)
asciilifeform: there's no shortage of stories like this, they all begin and end in exactly same way, 'seen 1, seen'em all'
asciilifeform: thing ran on 1 of the 1st mass prod. 'arm' cpu, also. and y'know the rest of what happened to those.
asciilifeform: st -- you can prolly predict. bought, turned into 'symbian', destroyed by idjicy.
asciilifeform: here's another somewhat obscure example of the progression. recall in 1990s there were 9000 makers of pocket comps ? the kind could pull out on train and type into. all but 1 such, ended up in thralldom to microshit, and packaged (in rom!) winblowz 'ce', abominable liquishit, but somehow '100% market dominant'. the 1 holdout was a brit outfit, 'psion' . i have 1 here in torture room, it has better responsiveness than most pc ! the re
asciilifeform: so, to return to thrd, historically when tree grows through pavement 'successfully', a la lamp, the naggumocalypse is not far, eventually around tree is built 'city park', with 'rules & regulations', 9000 idlers & hobos with imagined 'rights' etc
asciilifeform: 'Some people make new stuff... The herd gathers round the new item... The herd proceeds to interact with the new item... The fallen... come forth to "lead" the herd, to create "rules" for "the betterment" of the herd... The people continue to make their things exactly as they feel like... The herd moos happily'
asciilifeform: asciilifeform was drawn into bitcoin (specifically as portrayed by mp_en_viaje ; was never in the tardstalk forum , and http://www.loper-os.org/?p=939 until encountered mp_en_viaje ) specifically because appeared, to asciilifeform , to be the 1st known instance of a successful defense against the 1-5 rot progression .
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje had a piece ( where is it, grr ) where '1) actual people make a thing 2) herd finds it 3) herd 'also wants' 4) herd 'regulates', 'manages' 5) actual-people pack it ...' etc
asciilifeform: then -- the flood of 'driven not even by greed, but sheer ~need~' described by naggum.
asciilifeform: rright, back when this required proficiency with the seed-in-pavement-of-the-day
asciilifeform: ( and , lol, then 'mumps' will be overrun and die in 3-5 yrs and the old men will go, some to 'cluck' at ms sql , others to bottle )
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: if i find a piece by actual human being on subj, will post.
asciilifeform: it's universally the items that the wwwtards, microshit fruiting bodies, etc left for dead, where one still finds scrap of sanity and sumthing like documented, ~working~ moving parts.
asciilifeform: consider gnat. why is it that its corpse had usable organs in it when we dug up.
asciilifeform: this is actually typical of the 'trees in pavement', many/most have minimal net exposure. survival adaptation.
asciilifeform: 1970s-era string-munging lang ~to this day~ used for medical db. runs on e.g. old ibm gear. look at it some time, will have nightmare. ( can 'redefine number 4' and so forth, and not only ~can~ but sometimes ~must~ ) but there it is , still in use.
asciilifeform: this is the interesting bit, there are industries where 'tree in the pavement' was never even approached, much less asphalted over, by ~either~ unix or microshit .
asciilifeform: what jars, ~all extant plants run on 1970s tech, never even swapped. there are folx making replacement parts for the pdp8.
asciilifeform: but reactor would quietly run vms ( as incidentally they still do ) on vax.
asciilifeform: well linux in particular, as perpetrated by the finn, would almost certainly have stopped at the 'bored'
asciilifeform: to pile on the upstack thrd tho : lamp, as i see it, was linux's great ~calamity~. w/out rise of www, linux (or, moar likely, the bsd's) would have stayed small, obscure ( like many of the other systems asciilifeform worked with , that actually work and mp_en_viaje never heard of, or heard of strictly in 'facebookized' variants ) but... working. i.e. remained a green shoot in the pavement, for however long .
asciilifeform: so result could easily be massive pile of clickable but abortus links
asciilifeform: q is how many are missing chunks tho, as well as cut .
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: unfuck split [ ] ? this is good idea imho
asciilifeform: 'lamp' and the influx of deskilled labour connected with its rise , is imho exactly basketball tumour, and succinctly summarized by naggum
asciilifeform: i see the wwwism fad as tumour mass, rather than giraffe. yes from 'who's got the most cells, haha' tumour in yer chest the size of basketball is a 'success' .
asciilifeform: diff crack, in different place, in pavement , than early www .
