633300+ entries in 0.457s
X-Rob: But if I was
to be offered say... 10* block reward
to get block 1234 mined by pool B, I'd probably
take
that bet.
X-Rob: So. Yes.
Turns out you COULD pay him enough
to do
that.
X-Rob: I saw an amusing comment on reddit yesterday, on a photo of someone climbing a massive radio
tower.
They said 'You couldn't pay me enough
to do
that', and someone responded with '72.6 billion dollars. Per hour'.
X-Rob: Everyone's a whore. It's just
the price
that varies.
mircea_popescu: unless
the method we describe in
theory is actually implementable cheaper
than we estimate, of course.
X-Rob: tl;dr: It's possible, but unlikely for less
than say 50 * block reward
X-Rob: Time
to orphan blocks.
X-Rob: You still have a massive percentage of
the hashrate of
the entire btc network.
X-Rob: But, woe, your hashrate didn't mine
that block. p2pool got it.
X-Rob: There would be several options.
The simplest would be
to /still/ mine at Pool B with
the hashrate of
the other pools
mircea_popescu: X-Rob because you're not you. you're
the pool op, who has
to make a buck, and who is friends with
the other pool ops.
X-Rob: A sum large enough
to
tempt even
the most honest of pool operators.
mircea_popescu: <punkman> you were gonna
teach
them Enigmail? Fuck you. <<< word.
X-Rob: But, let's assume
that
the bet is massive. Say, a million USD.
X-Rob: My idea is, if I had bet on pool B mining block, and I controlled access
to hardware
that would bias pool B
to mine
the block, why wouldn't I just mine at pool B? I would win
the bet -and- I would earn whatever percentage of
the block
the hardware earned, which would probably be more
than 25% of
the block reward.
BingoBoingo: Enigmail used
to just work, but I dun
trust
the new "Ease of Use" update.
punkman: you were gonna
teach
them Enigmail? Fuck you.
mircea_popescu: and spare me with
the "miners will know",
there have been
three
times in history, including
today and recently, pools which split
their rewards across
to pretend like
they don't have 50% of
the hash rate
X-Rob: I'll earn my PPLNS, plus I'll win
the bet.
atcbot: [PityThePool Hashrate]: 830.74 GH/s [iSpace Pool Hashrate]: 1.44
TH/s
X-Rob: Why would I hash privately and mine at pool C, whjen I can just hash at pool B
to start with?
mircea_popescu: X-Rob well
the advantage would be
that
they win a bet, get more btc.
BingoBoingo: Well, depends on how big
the pot on
the who mines block X bet gets
mircea_popescu: given actual economic incentive
to lie however, it's worthless.
mircea_popescu: it's prima facie evidence, and absent any actual economic incentive
to lie it may stand as acceptable "proof"
X-Rob: Wether or not
they MINED
the coins is a different question, but I can't see any advantage in pool C mining coins for pool B
mircea_popescu: but
the fact
that
the pool ended up with
the coins is no sort of prof
the pool mined
the block.
X-Rob: Both of
those
together can give you a good indication of who mined
the block. If
the destination of
the coins is
to a known pool address,
then
that pool ended up with
the coins.
X-Rob: There are
two
things
that you can 'know' about a block.
The destination of its mined coins, and
the coinbase.
X-Rob: so, let's disregard
that
X-Rob: but
that's only 1%-ish of
the network
X-Rob: mircea_popescu: Well, p2pool is a specific case, and I probably shouldn't have used it, because
that's one of
the ones you /can/ be 100% certain about.
X-Rob: However.
There are a large number of pools where you can only guess. And 'because I say so' is about as much certainty as you're going
to get.
mircea_popescu: other
than making people with a soft understanding of
the protocol make wrong assumptions
X-Rob: so you can look at
the block and know
that, 100%, p2pool mined
that block, for example
X-Rob: mircea_popescu: Well,
that's an interesting question. Several pools mine
to an explicitly well known address.
mircea_popescu: the contention is whether "Who found a block" has any substance
to it past "we say so"
jurov: no
theyre in closet
jurov: but.. i'm not miner and maybe i;m mistaken.
that
there is none in
this channel makes me a bit sad.
jurov: so, i assert it is not "purely declaratory" but actual work
the miners have
to chew on
mircea_popescu: chetty lol is
this
the us dept solution
to nigerian scammers ?
jurov: i don't get
this. changing "root" address will help how?
jurov: and everyone would see
that
jurov: they would have
to collude
to divert newly minted coins
to specific address beforehand
jurov: and
thus hardwired once block is found
jurov: which
tx is part of merkle root
jurov: apparently
the pool is assigned using newly mined coins' address
jurov: also, is
there any miner
to explain - is
the signature part of work given
to minions or it can be slapped on afterwards?
mircea_popescu: but
then
the difficulty would actually have
to be
that.
jurov: miners can collude for difficulty bet
to come out a certai way
jurov: like,
the same can be said about bitbet's difficulty bets
jurov: if
they can collude about mutually signing blocks,
they can collude over much worse
things
mircea_popescu: what is
the advantage of a reimplementation of a dubious solution
to a solved problem ?
mircea_popescu: but whether
this attack is practical or not, or even
theoretically feasible :
mircea_popescu: because
the logical outcome is for all pool ops
to contriburte some btc, all make
the same bet on
the same one guy
punkman: mircea_popescu: yeah but why wouldn't
the miner bet on himself
jurov: miner can sign
the block with his signature
mircea_popescu: so here, i found a block, you publish it and we split
the pot.
mircea_popescu: jurov you realise
this is purely declaratory ? i can publish blocks on any ip i want.
punkman: miner can bet after he finds
the block, no?
mircea_popescu: course
the verge is
then
taking it exactly
the opposite way, but hey.
jurov: lol how would
the miners collude? if
they could
they already would...
mircea_popescu: CEO Yishan Wong finally addressed
the controversy on Saturday by releasing a remarkably clueless manifesto. Reddit, he wrote, is "not just a company running a website where one can post links and discuss
them, but
the government of a new
type of community." So,
then, what
type of government is Reddit? It's
the kind any reasonable person would want
to overthrow
mircea_popescu: i mean what's
the advantage
to rolling
this dice as opposed
to roling a proper, provably fair dice ?
jurov: Same
thing. We roll
the prize money over into a future race as a cherry bonus.
jurov: • What happens if
the miner is known, but wasn't one of
the betting options?
jurov: If
the miner hasn't been determined by
the above methods, we roll
the prize money over into a future race as a cherry bonus.
assbot: Reddit is a failed state |
The Verge
xmj: Rangerk: ben_vulpes introduced me
to
this one given similar interests
Rangerk: xmj --
tell me about bitcoin assets plz.
xmj: fluffypony: Rangerk would be
the one behind bettingblocks.com
Rangerk: goo.gl/7hDBxm Bet on
the miners of future bitcoin blocks.
xmj: and he'll need
that howto :-)
xmj: im
trying
to nag
the guy behind bettingblocks.com
to join us
kakobrekla: prolly needs some updating but most is
true
nubbins`: hey, at least
their HIF expenses are right on par
nubbins`: fun fact, it's actually running
through a coinbr acct
nubbins`: we were aiming for
them
to be in your hands within 3 weeks of payment, so ~09/20-ish