540000+ entries in 0.342s
the_scourge: ppcoin is more of an agorist/WoT effort
to get past
that post. more activity, more coin-days, more legitimate: less chance of a grinding attack. until
that point, you're hoping
that
the highly improbable does't happen. how is
that different?
mircea_popescu: you're committing
the shaman mistake.
that is
to say,
the mistake
to believe categories in your mind have objective substance.
the_scourge: until
that point, it's still just probability
the_scourge: i don't see very much difference between
that and PoW blockchains which have vulnerabilities early on, and can't be
truly invulnerable until legitimate mining is consuming 51% of
the earth's electricity
the_scourge: 'cause
the coin-days of legitimate holders will far exceed whatever a grinder could possibly come up with
the_scourge: at some point,
the checkpoints in ppcoin won't be needed
mircea_popescu: and
the local power rangers are
trying
to prop both by fiat.
mircea_popescu: in ppcoin
they exist because
the protocol is very weak, even weaker
than
the code,
mircea_popescu: in other words : in bitcoin checkpoints exist mostly because
the protocol is strong, and
the power rangers are
trying
to leech strength
to prop
their own shitty code.
fluffypony: whereas with Bitcoin if you remove
the checkpoints nobody has enough hashing power
to be able
to rewrite history back several
thousand blocks
fluffypony: otherwise
they're open
to stake-grinding attacks
the minute
they
take
them away
fluffypony: the_scourge: because with Bitcoin checkpoints are optional, and won't be needed eventually. with PeerCoin
they will always be needed (for pure PoS).
the_scourge: erg sorry for multi line but
this does not explain why peercoin's checkpoints won't work. we should call
them something else if
the word is causing a problem in discussing it
the_scourge: checkpoints.
This is a very misleading name because it is already used
to describe an anti-denial-of-
the_scourge: "Finally, it should be mentioned
that developer-signed blocks are known in
the PoS community as
mircea_popescu: a kind soul with git installed pls dpaste
that shit sometime
ty.
BigBitz: I just don't have my key on
this
terminal.
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: I've pinged him
to ask where it is
mircea_popescu: fluffypony srsly, got a link
to
the whitepaper's github ? guy's
tree's gnarly.
the_scourge: mircea_popescu: mission accomplished. i'm going back
to reading
that whitepaper
mircea_popescu: the_scourge from experience, not even human
translation by billingual hands do my prose justice.
mircea_popescu: it is more a function of people being removed from
the means of production
than anything. no living
thing will ever accept its pointlessness. as such, cargo cults and mud pies everywhere.
the_scourge: mircea_popescu: will google
translate do
that justice?
the_scourge: well it's
true. my dad was smart enough
to say shit like 'it doesn't matter how hard your working if
the
thing you're working on is useless', and yet
today
the highest academics actually
think
that
this universal gnon rule can be broken because
they invented more complexity?
mircea_popescu: in any case it indicates it's a fallacy older
than feudalism.
the_scourge: i actually wish
there was a marxist around
to make it. at
this very instant. < speaking of making
things insanely complex
the_scourge: would
this be a good
time
to
talk about how
the mud pie fallacy is VERY apropos :)
mircea_popescu: after which, come back, do something useful with your
time,
that'll actually be worth money.
mircea_popescu: so now :
take
that website, give it away or whatever, go
to read
the logs for
the next year or so.
mircea_popescu: Rippleflip
tom swanson famously argued
the same stuff, from perhaps a better position
than you'll find yourself in.
mircea_popescu: Rippleflip_
to put it plainly : someone who does not see being in wot as esential can not possible have yet done anything whatsoever worth any amount at all, in crypto.
the_scourge is reading whitepapers but would like
to pause and say
that maybe alf is right, intelligence and creativity are orthoganal
to complexity
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: I already
told him
that when he joined -otc nearly
two hours ago
mircea_popescu: fluffypony got a link
to
the actual github in question ?
Rippleflip_: #bitcoin-otc laughed at
the pricing of 1,250. is it really
too much?
Rippleflip_: so i do not see it essential
to being in
the WoT
Rippleflip_: mircea_popescu: we will of course use escrow with
the buyer
the_scourge: mircea_popescu: is
that incentives whitepaper actualy kanzure ?
mircea_popescu: or w/e chance at
that you might have built over
the 1.5 years in question.
mircea_popescu: Rippleflip_ you know,
the only moral here is
that spending 1.5 years outside of
the wot essentially cost you 1250 btc
mircea_popescu: ;;later
tell kanzure saw your enumeration incentives
thing. lolz were had.
mircea_popescu: srsly, "Textual enumeration of incentives related
to Bitcoin software." ?!
Rippleflip_: been operating with
the same engine for over 1.5 years
the_scourge: fluffypony: i'm intruiged by his ideas and would like
to subscribe
to his newsletter
Rippleflip_: well, a bit over 20000 unique players, over 1,5 million usd wagered (possibly over 2 million with bitcoin value being higher in
the past)
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: he's attached
to
the Monero Research Lab as one of
the MRL Friends, so he's participated in some of
the Schnorr signature multi-sig discussions we've had
fluffypony: 6.4 is
the section where he rips PoS a new one
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: yeah, he has it in git if you want
to step back
to previous versions
Rippleflip_: PeterL: no. it's also worth nothing if we make it. potential buyer has
to do
the research. we can of course give you data
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu:
this reminds me of conversation we had of Grad students being pimped out.
mircea_popescu: pretty much born out of
their poverty years, each academic spent some
time going "well if i
think of it really complicatedly, i won't be so hungry anymore and
those won't really be cockroaches"
the_scourge: the freicoin solution is shockingly simple. my mind appreciates
that :D
mircea_popescu: this is pretty much
the "us academia" solution
to everything. "make it more complicated, people won't notice"
the_scourge: 'cause reasons like 'keeping it anonymous AND democratic' don't fly for me anymore. butterin is worried about democracy or whatever, i'm past
that point
fluffypony: the_scourge: Vitalik's approach
to solving anything is
to layer complexity on
top, his Delegated PoS
thing is just ugh
the_scourge: fluffypony: you may very well be right. what are
the
top reasons why not?
fluffypony: the_scourge: PoS is not a
terrible idea, it just doesn't work
the_scourge: fluffypony:
there was a post about possible PoS vulnerabilities written by Vitalik. for what his opinion is worth
mircea_popescu: well
there's a difference between wanting and
trying
things out you know. i also want
to find a cure for cancer, but i'm not going around feeding people pills.
fluffypony: I
think King and Nadal genuinely wanted
to find an alternative
to PoS
mircea_popescu: then artforz found it had a hole, and
then it changed
to having 12 magic nodes with 10 mn "unspendable" coins each
mircea_popescu: if you look,
throughout 2011/12 some mentally deficient dank clone spent his
time producing prose (not so different from
the gavincoin crapolade) professionally explaining how bitcoin is obsolete
fluffypony: and
then your coins add
to
the "stake weight"
fluffypony: you basically just have
to have
the wallet open
mircea_popescu: and for other people
to be all like "I MAKE MONEY WHILE YOIU SLEEP!!11"
fluffypony: they make hundreds of BTC on one scam,
then lose half of it
to another scam
the next day
mircea_popescu: if
this liquidity is natural i'll eat my hat. for one
thing,
the people interested in alts are interested in alts specifically because
they're bitcoin poor.
to propose
to me
that
they are 100x more likely
to
trade btc
than usd seems beyond counterintuitive.
fluffypony: hitbtc is most probably a scam so I'd avoid
that