496000+ entries in 0.313s
mircea_popescu: fluffypony let's see
this. pool A has 25% of hash rate. pool B has 30% of hash rate.
there's 45 other pools each with 1%.
Adlai: and, miner C could be mining on pool A, and getting paid according
to pool A's public stats, but actually be "working" on an attack against pool B
fluffypony: Pool A won't attack Pool B and
then put out a blog post bragging about it
fluffypony: even
though, in reality, it is a competing pool
fluffypony: they're
talking about a surreptitious attack where
the attacker is not known
fluffypony: they're not
talking about a situation like
that
mircea_popescu: i mean...
they should still be here, riught ?
they owned a year ago, right ? what happened ?
Adlai: it may indeed be a DoS on minds, withholding relevant problems by suggesting subtly irrelevant ones in
their stead
mircea_popescu: fluffypony if miners actually don't care, how do you explain 50btc/btcguild's demise after
their collusion with gavin last year ?
Adlai: and
they can't credibly say "we're not withholding blocks from competing pools", only "our submitted shares are not suggestive of such an attack being performed against us"
mircea_popescu shrugs. derps in reddit care who said god hates faggots. yet people who actually have stuff riding on
this don't care about stuff
that matters. i dunno, seems rather anecdotal.
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: "miners care deeply who owns a pool" - we're getting into
the realm of
the anecdotal here,
the mining farms I supply ASIC racks
to don't care about
the people running
the pools
they use at all, and
they don't run
their own
Adlai: afaict,
the only people who can credibly back up such a statement are pool operators
funkenstein_: the real equilibrium is
to send zero of your miners off
to
throw
their hash rate at nothing
Adlai: the observation which seems correct is
that
they don't account for
the drop in difficulty caused by hashpower diverted
towards attack... but i'm not certain
that
this lack of accounting is in
their favor
mircea_popescu: small miners don't care, but
this is universal -
they don't care about anything, including rig safety.
Adlai is genuinely curious
to see whether funkenstein_'s criticism extends beyond "this behavior is not rational, for me and my rational friends"
fluffypony: just
that it has low latency and is stable
mircea_popescu: funkenstein_ we left aside
the idiots in question and are discussing
the
theoretic
theory.
fluffypony: because
the owner of pool A and pool B could be
the same
mircea_popescu: fluffypony
the fact we can't observe it doesn't allow us
to value it at 0.
fluffypony: but we can't observe
the social fabric
mircea_popescu: the barrier
to entry
to making mpex is not "making
the software". same for pools,
mircea_popescu: you seem
to go on
this remnant of forum dumb where
the
technical costs are relevant in bitcoin.
they are not.
fluffypony: and attack all
the pools
they don't want
fluffypony: in fact, since
the cost of starting and operating a pool is low, and
they already have
the
technical know-how,
they can setup a whole hoard of seemingly legitimate pools
mircea_popescu: unless
there's actually C1...Cn and any of
THEIR hash rate grows.
fluffypony: it is in A's best interest
to setup a new pool, C, and
then DDoS B so
that C's % of
the hashrate grows
mircea_popescu: which is
the real risk here : if pools collaborate
TOO MUCH we end up with usg 2.0
mircea_popescu: so ? even if
there's only
two -
the +ev outcome is collaboration not hostility.
fluffypony: two mining pools
that control 25% of
the hashrate each, mining pool A and B
fluffypony: mining pools aren't laid out like
that
though
mircea_popescu: territoriality developed in living
things for instance specifically
to
try and pierce
this problem.
mircea_popescu: even leaving aside
the rank nonsense of
the particular "analysis".
the concept
that it is somehow game-theoretic feasible for a one-of-many arrangement
to attack everyone is at least bizarre.
mircea_popescu: dude am i
the only one with a scrollback or something. how is
the "nash equilibrium" stuff sensible.
funkenstein_: also calling somebody an enemy and
then hurting
them is not rational behavior. looking at your collected BTC is rational behavior.
funkenstein_: Adlai,
their formulae are flawed..
they assume
total network hashrate -m- is
the same even
though you are
throwing away solved blocks
Adlai: it helps you by hurting your enemy worse
than it hurts you, for certain ratios between your
total available hashpower, your selfish-allocated-hashpower, and
the hashpower under attack
funkenstein_: the other one suggests
that mining for a pool and
throwing away found blocks could somehow help you
funkenstein_: the "selfish mining" suggests
that not broadcasting a found block could somehow help you
fluffypony: oh I haven't looked at
their specific data, just what
they were generally positing
funkenstein_: i'm not saying game
theory is bogus, but
their analysis of
the return based on
the so-called attack
fluffypony: it is in
the best interest of larger mining pools
to attack smaller ones, for
the most part, and even
to attack each other (as long as it isn't a matter of mutually assured destruction)
Adlai: what is
there
to write about it, at
this point, beyond "no mining pool operator is honest enough
to publicly disclose
their selfish mining hashrate allocation"?
fluffypony: funkenstein_:
the game
theoretic Nash Equilibrium stuff isn't bogus, as far as I can see
davout: "Microsoft creates a container for Windows, reinvents
toilet bowl"
ben_vulpes: and will doubtless get drunk under
the
table by asciilifeform
pete_dushenski: quiet
trilema
too. i imagine
that
there are many preparations underway for your arrival :)
pete_dushenski: and
this channel will be awfully quiet without you, mp, and alf!
ben_vulpes: next
tuesday when i punch out for
ten days will definitely.
ben_vulpes: point being
that some weeks i'm very glad
to have structured my life as i've done so.
ben_vulpes: no man, when i say "the books" i mean my derpy little company's p/l statements, outgoing bills, outstanding invoices,
the like
pete_dushenski: people have dozens of other avenues for information distribution and storage other
than centralised paper recrods
pete_dushenski: well in
that memories, skills, and ideas, are passed down regardless of whether
they're recoverable in written form 2,000 years later
pete_dushenski: well,
this'd go back
to
that 'did
the burning of alexandria's library matter or nyot' question
pete_dushenski: but seriously jeez you make 'the ledgers' sound like
the fuckin dead sea scrolls
ben_vulpes: ;;later
tell mircea_popescu heh maybe i'm not
the worst jew after all
ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: "books" <<
the ledgers?!
ben_vulpes: i plan
to bike around, wander around a few neighborhoods, post up in cafés
to get some personal hax in,
take
tango lessons in
the evening, nap, eat steak drink wine, sleep, repeat, con, etc.
pete_dushenski: i have nfi what you're
talking about. lol which books be
these?
ben_vulpes: "lifestyle business", i keep reminding myself while reviewing
the books.
pete_dushenski: it wouldn't be much less
travel from here
to meat-b-a.
timisoara woulda been faster
to
travel
to.
ben_vulpes: perhaps a whole cult springs up around it someday - "to wind
the clock!"
ben_vulpes: <decimation> [04:16] yeah I don't
think
they are serious, apparently it partially depends on visitors winding it <<
tbh i find
this delightful and entertaining
ben_vulpes: tuesday morning. some 24 hours of
travel, each way.
ben_vulpes: i'll probably stare at
the ceiling for an hour or
two,
thinking about
the infinite amount of shit i should be
taking care of before clocking out for
the con
pete_dushenski: lol yup.
twas a full, productive day. i'll sleep well
tonight
ben_vulpes: <nubbins`> [03:53] and i walk around for a half hour... rolling it << i chased myself around my brain
trying
to get a look at myself for an hour or four on acid
this one
time
assbot: gavinandresen comments on
There is a
targeted attack on Bitcoin occurring right now, coordinated by national agencies. I know
this because I am an insider with prior involvement in a key operation. ... (
http://bit.ly/1H6ILDq )
pete_dushenski: "Okey dokey, but
this smells very much like a conspiracy
theory. Especially
the action item at
the end: "spread
the word." If you had ended with "These are
the concrete
things we all should be doing"
then I'd be more sympathetic... assuming
those
things weren't just "BE EXTRA PARANOID!
THEY ARE OUT
TO GET US!" "
pete_dushenski: or mebbe it was only open
to kokkarinen in city he didn't want
to live in.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform:
tenure does not exist in canada? << it does. but like a
thursday night of caviar and dom p, isn't for everyone.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: "Magic Mantle of Power" was Snowden's
technical
term for
the red hood
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: comment replied, in case you dun check on
these
things.