442300+ entries in 0.282s
gabriel_laddel: :/ I know. Climacs is
the inevitable conclusion. Doing
the elisp dance around
the cl package system just isn't fun.
trinque: I want
to have
that broken apart into sensible categories of action, a
tree structure of sorts from
the current point outward
to wherever else I might go
trinque: I want
two
things, at any point I want
to know what I have available
to me in
the context I'm in
trinque: yes
that might be
the right way; I'm not in a position where I feel I know
the best way yet.
gabriel_laddel: trinque: well, you could do
that, but it will interact with eldoc and slime-autodoc
trinque: might be easier for me
to forget about eldoc and
try writing what I actually want from scratch
trinque: gabriel_laddel |
trinque: yeah, so fyi
there is no obvious way
to add
the docstring
to eldoc <<
thanks for
the crack at it
assbot: Logged on 23-05-2015 07:11:21; mircea_popescu: seems
the sort of meta-prograsmming
task for which lisp was invented anyway. keep your code as a s-expr of
the code you deliver.
assbot: Logged on 11-07-2015 22:07:49; gabriel_laddel: MP is on
the verge of understanding.
gabriel_laddel: trinque: yeah, so fyi
there is no obvious way
to add
the docstring
to eldoc
phf: because
technology change, but
thinking basically remained
the same
phf: at some point i assume it wasn't retarded, more like "what can i do with
these resistors and a soldering iron", became retarded later
gabriel_laddel: ascii_modem: dija read
the part where I specified
the reason for
this is
to impress a prince?
ascii_modem: and distract from
the fact
that
the ~machine~ is
terminally retarded
phf: in practical
terms, common lisp quirks are direct result of underlying machine level architecture
ascii_modem: all of
these
turd polishings are 20+ years of wank by now,
phf: gabriel_laddel:
that's because "removing" is not a particularly worthwhile activity in
this case
ascii_modem: rearranging 'elt' and 'nth' ~~ 'deck chairs on
titanic'
ascii_modem: you won't appreciate
the full weight of
this until you
try
to do something with, e.g., graphics, or signal process
gabriel_laddel: phf: no one has done so much as even drafting a document specifying what is
to be removed.
phf: i
think "minimal set of common lisp primitives" is a common
theme on #lisp, not surprisingly with different answers every
time
ascii_modem: the retarded os, in
turn forced into being by retarded hw
gabriel_laddel: sbcl, ccl, allegro, lispworks - each had own << You can still
take portable CL programs and run
the upgrade program on
them without forcing compiler changes.
gabriel_laddel: If *any* of
them did
this, for any compiler, I'd be rather surprised.
gabriel_laddel: ascii_modem:
there is a scheme which didn't
throw away
the CL compiler and start from scratch?
assbot: Logged on 11-07-2015 22:43:42; gabriel_laddel: For example, say
that you find
the existence of both elt & nth
to be stupid. write a (meta)program
that walks an arbitrary CL program and fixes all elt's
to nths. Let everyone know
that it's deprecated, and
that
they can run
this program on
their code
to update it
to CL 1.2 or whatever.
gabriel_laddel: phf: also, I
think
the loper device will end up being designed on
top of CLIM.
phf: i'm not one of
those people you're arguing against, i like cl standard just fine. i did paid common lisp consulting on and off for
the past 10 years.
gabriel_laddel: These metaprograms are great
tasks for interns, especially
those who don't "get lisp" yet.
gabriel_laddel: Work CL down
to
the core language and
then when you get something new
to play with you can build up
that core and run (some) 'CL' programs on it.
gabriel_laddel: Even with a Loper device you'll still have programs composed of
the same primitives: draw-circle*, draw-sphere*
gabriel_laddel: Over
the course of a few years we can work
the language down
to something much smaller without at any point making it unsuitable for production work.
gabriel_laddel: I, for example, dislike having both defstruct and defclass in
the language.
gabriel_laddel: the compiler can
then be modified
to
take
this into account.
gabriel_laddel: For example, say
that you find
the existence of both elt & nth
to be stupid. write a (meta)program
that walks an arbitrary CL program and fixes all elt's
to nths. Let everyone know
that it's deprecated, and
that
they can run
this program on
their code
to update it
to CL 1.2 or whatever.
☟︎☟︎ gabriel_laddel: People keep bitching about "all
the
things wrong with common lisp" while completely ignoring
that you can meaningfully upgrade
the language without
throwing away all
the work
that has been done over
the years.
gabriel_laddel: Look,
there is no reason we can't
take SBCL and incrementally modify it
to work on a loper device
gabriel_laddel: I was going
to put
this off until later - but whatever.
phf: yeah yeah, but it's cockroaches all
the way down. anyone sane who's attempted ends up like asciilifeform, rejecting von neumann architecture, and ultimately giving up
phf: gabriel_laddel: have you seen, nyef is making a new clim version, i
think i read something about framebuffer backend
trinque: if you'd cracked warp drives, yet were surrounded by imbeciles
that couldn't use
the knowledge if
they
tried, maybe you might
try
to stash
the knowledge in some corner of
the world where it may re-emerge later
trinque: barring
that... sbcl on unix? or some other compromise?
trinque: obviously I want stan's fucking c-gate flowputer if it would mean I can actually reason about
the machine's behavior
trinque: I'm
trying
to say something about acts of desperation around preserving a dying (better) culture in
the midst of an insane one.
gabriel_laddel: hrm.. I'll drop something in
the logs about forwards compatibility sometime.
trinque: emacs is
the closest
thing I as a derp coming into
the industry in 2006 would ever find which somewhat resembled
the experience
that was possible *before I was goddamn born*
gabriel_laddel: Spending a year learning elisp, and
then a year unlearning it because it's a dead end isn't pragmatic at all.
gabriel_laddel: Emacs is Stallman hating
the lisp machine. Pragmatic my arse.
trinque: with
the pragmatism dial set somewhere middling
trinque: I compared masamune
to emacs somewhere in
teh logz
trinque: gabriel_laddel: indeed, I "see what you did
there" so
to speak
gabriel_laddel: trinque: fundamentally
the only way I see
this happening is by getting a great prince
to "see" why it is one would like such a
thing.
trinque: gabriel_laddel: seems
the further down
the stack lisp might reach,
the more
the argument
that it should be coming from
the bottom up applies
phf: lispworks clim is a life support for legacy systems, and as such
their
technical decisions have merit
trinque: I'll be fine seeing someone stick a chisel in
the ear of emacs, breaking it into
the several pieces it should've been
gabriel_laddel: perhaps someone will
take
the
time
to hack
the "zen" X server into
this stack
gabriel_laddel: phf:
the whole "backends"
thing (which lispworks uses) is retarded.
phf: hmm, might be worth giving it a
try
then. i wrote some code with clim a while back, but
that was using lispworks
gabriel_laddel: earlier I started
to modify
the address book
to handle my rolodex
gabriel_laddel: phf: My dashboard (which I use every day) is CLIM. I edit
text in CLIMACS from
time
to
time, use
the listener
to browse classes.
phf: gabriel_laddel: have you been using mcclim for day
to day hacking? last
time i
tried it, it was very slow. but
then it was on a ppc machine, so maybe moore's law
took care of
that
gabriel_laddel: trinque:
try `apropos' and note
that you can display all generic functions for a class using
the left click.
trinque: I'll
try your suggestion
there
trinque: ah ok; yeah, paging
through
the hyperspec is my current method of discovering new functions
to use
gabriel_laddel: I ended up binding it
to f8, as was
tired of pulling it up all
the
time.
gabriel_laddel: I can't speak
to
that, but using
the class browser is a great boon
to CL development.
trinque: I'm open
to hearing how I'd use CLIM
there
trinque: current
thing I'm hacking on is
that api server guy
trinque: I haven't really, other
than with
the intent
to learn about CLIM
gabriel_laddel: trinque: have you been using
the CLIM listener in your CL hacking?
trinque: I'll
take all
the CL prosthetics I can get
gabriel_laddel: but
there already exists a printer for
the value of
the symbol at point
trinque: don't even have
to do
the former unless you want
to
gabriel_laddel: well, doing both is sorta a PITA, so I'll prolly decline
that
gabriel_laddel: ftr, no one should have
to learn elisp. it is a shit language.
trinque: yeah, I basically want
that guy jammed into eldoc
trinque: maybe just getting eldoc
to barf out
the docstring for
the
thing at point would suffice