406400+ entries in 0.283s
punkman: gabriel_laddel: well even if you can
translate all
the worl'ds js
to lisp, I still don't want any JS
BingoBoingo: What is nope.js and how does it differ from mozilla pdf.js???? Why
trust any javascript runtime?
gabriel_laddel: scripting it with PS sucks unless it is
the "base layer" of
the UI
trinque: expected lisp in conkeror,
then... sadness
trinque: gabriel_laddel: yeah
that immediately pissed me off
BingoBoingo: trinque:
Than do as I do, and don't run it.
gabriel_laddel: punkman:
trinque:
the idea here is
to use nope.js on conkeror, which is written in js
trinque: BingoBoingo: I would much rather download someone's signed lisp program and run
that locally
than have
this horrible half-creature
that grabs code from everywhere,
tries
to "sandbox" it, and runs without so much as a gpg fart in
the wind
☟︎ trinque: now
that's a place
to begin
talking.
BingoBoingo: trinque: I may be drunk so I may not have started my objections at
the right place. Whatever code you privately jizz onto servers is yours. Code you
try
to make other people execute is a crime.
trinque: punkman: yeah well I don't start with boil
the ocean
punkman: trinque:
the web still exists; gotta deal with
that monstrosity somehow << need a sane browser first, without JS.
then we can start writing custom handlers for heathen websites
that we are unable
to view.
☟︎☟︎ trinque: the languages are close enough
that it's really just an alternate JS syntax; not like you're compiling haskell
to JS
BingoBoingo: I'm not about
to feed nytimes.com into anything
that would do other
than discard its JS
assbot: A white guy named Michael couldn’t get his poem published.
Then he became Yi-Fen Chou. -
The Washington Post ... (
http://bit.ly/1L0tS81 )
trinque: I
tend
to lean
the way deedbot.org looks
trinque: the web still exists; gotta deal with
that monstrosity somehow
BingoBoingo: Srsly we are dealing with
the devil and his works
BingoBoingo: No version of postscript is acceptable either unless read with eyes and generated with
TeX under careful watch with rifle at hand.
BingoBoingo: trinque: I am referring
to
the latter in reference
to gabriel_laddel's assertion javascript should be parsed at all.
gabriel_laddel: trinque: he is discussing nope.js,
the javascript
to parenscript
transpiler
trinque: I would agree
that where
the written word is concerned, please do not give me a single-page JS app
trinque: or generally
that
there should be more
text-only content?
trinque: are we
talking about
the web here?
BingoBoingo: If you catch
the devil hold him close for you shall not catch him again.
BingoBoingo: Cutting HTML, markdown, or postscript
to bare
text is fine. Cutting javascript
to OMGWTFBBQ 3D graphs but
translated is
the devil incarnate.
gabriel_laddel: BingoBoingo: why
take my (or anyone else's) word for it, spin up an SBCL REPL.
BingoBoingo: The point where you decide
to eat javascript is
the point you go coprophilliac for satan
BingoBoingo: gabriel_laddel: But at some point people want
to put arbitray string on
their own.
gabriel_laddel: trinque: lol, we understand each other. BingoBoingo doesn't
though.
trinque: any grammar can just say "here's
the header, here's
the footer, go nuts kid"
trinque: "here be dragons" was poetic license for
that
gabriel_laddel: BingoBoingo: I swear
to you
that you can input arbitrary strings in LISP.
gabriel_laddel: I cut 3 paragraphs from
that quote, which are quite relevent
to
this conversation.
BingoBoingo: But even in LISP people
there is a divide between machine language and "people" language. One can not adequately enjoy
the lamentations of enemy women in machine language
trinque: we shall see; guy hasn't released anything yet and signed his name
thereupon
BingoBoingo: <trinque> XML syntax is a heinous misstep
that affords little, demands much << It is, and When gabriel_laddel
talks massamune unfortunately I read XML or XML with paren
gabriel_laddel: e bit further back,
to
the Middle Ages. One of its characteristics was
that 'reasoning by analogy' was rampant; another characteristic was almost
total intellectual stagnation, and we now see why
the
two go
together. A reason for mentioning
this is
to point out
that, by developing a keen ear for unwarranted analogies, one can detect a lot of medieval
thinking
today." --
https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/ gabriel_laddel: "On
the historical evidence I shall be short. Carl Friedrich Gauss,
the Prince of Mathematicians but also somewhat of a coward, was certainly aware of
the fate of Galileo —and could probably have predicted
the calumniation of Einstein— when he decided
to suppress his discovery of non-Euclidean geometry,
thus leaving it
to Bolyai and Lobatchewsky
to receive
the flak. It is probably more illuminating
to go a littl
☟︎ trinque: supposing your syntax has a "here be dragons"
token
trinque: in my opinion one is a subset of
the other
BingoBoingo: <trinque> no one says your qntras have
to be parsable, but it might be nice if
the language you configure your editor/DE/OS with is. << And at what point should barin authored
text end and machine authored
text begin?
trinque: XML syntax is a heinous misstep
that affords little, demands much
trinque: no one says your qntras have
to be parsable, but it might be nice if
the language you configure your editor/DE/OS with is.
BingoBoingo: WHy do such
things need parsed by machine?
BingoBoingo wonders when unblemished
text became
the problem.
trinque: and
that was more or less looking for a reason
trinque: haven't used either for anything aside from regular macros
to make some stumpwm config prettier
trinque: never found a use for
them in my own code
to date
trinque: I've only so far written macros
to deal with
the hair of someone else's shit
☟︎ gabriel_laddel: Reader macros also allow you
to deal with syntax mechanically for whatever it's worth.
trinque: BingoBoingo: I would say mr gabriel_laddel has it,
that all syntaxes can be done within
the lisp system, and simultaneously you find
that
the vast majority aren't necessary
☟︎ gabriel_laddel: Partially
through
translating
the imaxima LaTeX stuff such
that you can
take a maxima AST, view it as LaTeX, maxima syntax or lisp all at
the CLIM listener.
trinque: BingoBoingo: not sure I hear
the question
trinque: gabriel_laddel: not at all;
they've already learned more syntax via basic algebra
BingoBoingo: Human language contains ambiguities, Machine languages are formal, why
try
to bin
them
together entirely?
trinque: started with math, said "what if we didn't have any order of operations except
those explicitly stated, and also "wtf re: infix anyway?"
☟︎ BingoBoingo: What part of
the utterance "Fuck You" is formal enough
to be an sexpr
trinque: I
taught someone a bit of scheme recently (alongside SICP) and used roughly
that approach.
trinque: gabriel_laddel: just
the bit about how if we don't make all
these assumptions about order of operations, and arrange
things sensibly, we've got sexps
gabriel_laddel: trinque: at
the beginning of (I'd assume "A Realistic Solution
to
the Education Problem" but don't see it
there)?
gabriel_laddel: because you can always "open up" any "structure" and are guaranteed
to get more of
the same i.e., lisp, i.e., sexprs
☟︎ gabriel_laddel: punkman: When you hack lisp, everything "deals in" (modifies, returns)
these structures.
trinque: gabriel_laddel: nice "hey look we invented lisp" at
the beginning
there
gabriel_laddel: now,
that AST (in blue) can be mapped, with no loss of information
to
the "lisp" (s-expression) under it: (/ (* (+ 3 2) 8) (* 3 (^ 3 6)))
gabriel_laddel: so,
this doesn't happen in lisp because everything IS it's own AST, as is.
gabriel_laddel: because you can't "get at"
the AST, because
that isn't how people naively write parsers.
gabriel_laddel: punkman: and everytime
this happens you need all new
tooling for
this new language, right?
gabriel_laddel: punkman: so when you create a new format or something in ALGOL you have
to create a new parser right?
gabriel_laddel: BingoBoingo: hide it all behind Super-Meta-click and leave
the rest
to Congnition Stratifies(TM)
BingoBoingo: trinque: Yes, and almost always my problem is reading some fucking
text
trinque: BingoBoingo: dunno bout
that; isn't it
to model your problem in clear
terms?
punkman: gabriel_laddel: I get your point but also,
this kinda sounds
to me like "don't use math symbols, write it all with
the full power of english"
☟︎ BingoBoingo: The entire point of domain specific languages is shutting opportunities
to drop
turds everywhere out
gabriel_laddel: "Here are some abstractions, solve
the problem."
The end
gabriel_laddel: punkman:
the whole DSL
thing doesn't have a name in lisp because it isn't needed
trinque: better
to be able
to extend your DSL at will
gabriel_laddel: punkman:
the problem with creating "DSLs" in ALGOL is
that you end up losing M-. (jump
to definition) and any ability you may have had
to interact with
the AST of
the previous programming language (read:
the actual language, as it is
the
thing
that contains all
the semantics) when you change
the syntax
BingoBoingo: gabriel_laddel: If I want
to print pretty papers I don't need, want, or desire
turing complete postscript
BingoBoingo: <gabriel_laddel> punkman: you lose
the full power of
the programming language. << In nearly every case a 3rd part gives you code you don't want a full language. You want a plainly crippled language.
gabriel_laddel: punkman: you lose
the full power of
the programming language.
gabriel_laddel: BingoBoingo: Enough with
the almost analogies already.
They're an escape hatch
to nowhere.
BingoBoingo: I'm just wondering who at all should have
to eat javascript asbestos
to become a Great Red Dragon of
the Information age.
gabriel_laddel: Want
to launch a 3D visualization from a button press in
the back of
the settings menu? Sure, why not.
gabriel_laddel: the full power of
the machine should be yours, at all
times
gabriel_laddel: the correct model is
that you never have a DSL or "mini-language"
BingoBoingo: gabriel_laddel: You have
to understand I am appraoching
this as a
trained Librarian. Scripting is at best a form of highlighting (never a reason for broswerscript or postscript
to be
turing complete) Everything else it does is vandalism