4300+ entries in 0.003s
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-07 05:08:56 spyked: anyway, I'ma sit on
this
thread for a while, will focus on getting uefi disentangled for now
mp_en_viaje: nevertheless, i suspect a superior systematic set of answers
to
the main questions is on its way from
there.
mp_en_viaje: does actually expose pretty much
the entire buboe. except it's not a pretty sight, for one
thing, and moreover "civilised" life as narrated by
the pantsuit's simply not compatible with
the observation.
mp_en_viaje has been re-reading
this discussion in lieu of sleeping.
there's a lot in
there, and i fear not so greatly expressed.
diana_coman: ahaha; but yes, what's with all
those hierogliphs anyway, slash and a bended sword!!
mp_en_viaje: meanwhile in everyday living,
there's much more accessible rack-and-pinions. "don't write " " when you mean "\t", god damn it! and such
diana_coman: history is quite an expensive
thing
to have anyway.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-08 09:47:49 mp_en_viaje: "oh, we were worried china outspends us on $random-nonsense-we-made-up-specifically-so-as-to-have-it-all-to-ourselves" "why were you worried about
that ?" "so we have somtething
to
talk about" "ah, okay"
mp_en_viaje: "young men" aka men without history,
that's what's
there : you can only
take for your own
the past of another if you don't have much past of your own.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-08 16:43:30 diana_coman: or it gets pushed first and it becomes
the new fashion, "was
there any other way??"
mp_en_viaje: now, much like "engineering" is
the supposed "thing sir bouch betrayed",
that a) only exists retrospectively and b) only can be constructed by young men
diana_coman: well, I always wanted
to do
that rather
than anything else, what can I
tell you.
mp_en_viaje: hard
to not do it all
the
time, you know ?
mp_en_viaje: but
then again, everyone should do
that. i started doing it in my 20s.
mp_en_viaje: it helps if one doesn't attempt
to simultaneously live and exist within a "society", ie a list of bad "no" answers
to fundamental questions.
mp_en_viaje: though i dunno he should retire. i suspect he should
take
teenaged fucktoys.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-08 16:58:04 diana_coman: hm,
the bridge was his folly in
that he should have retired while not yet "the old one, it's
time for us"?
mp_en_viaje: a lot more becomes obvious once one
turns off
the elohim caliban wordmakin' rattle
mp_en_viaje: much like ceausescu, you know ?
there he finds himself, among young men for once. for once in a logn while. and he still, he doesn't quite see how it'll go. he's surrprised by
the chain of events. i dunno, seems fucking obvious.
diana_coman: iirc he also died quite soon after
that so he was
truly done anyway,
there is
that.
mp_en_viaje: diana_coman,
the queen didn't
take it back anwyays, iirc.
mp_en_viaje: (the joke : don't
think ; but if you must
think don't say ; but if you say at least don't write ; and if you write do not sign. but if you sign -- don't be surprised)
diana_coman: whatever, his keeping
the
title or something.
mp_en_viaje: i honestly do not
thing he should've anything, besides perhaps not be surprised, like in
that old ro joke.
diana_coman: hm,
the bridge was his folly in
that he should have retired while not yet "the old one, it's
time for us"?
mp_en_viaje: man's impact on
the world surroundant's a lot less manifest
than
that.
mp_en_viaje: the bridge, contrary
to what kids would love
to believe, and
their mothers prefer
to pretend for expediency's sake, did not hold or fall because of what bouch said, or did.
diana_coman: ah,
that certainly (for both successful for 20 years and
the gilkes part, sure)
mp_en_viaje: so successful in fact
they altered
the public space significantly, like after some guy from nigeria wom
the olympics all nigerian kids were now swimmers or w/e
mp_en_viaje: diana_coman, a yes,
that. but by
the
time someone would venture money in 71,
they had been extremely successful for 20 years.
mp_en_viaje: there was economy underneath, yes, but not
the kind
the naive want
to make it out.
diana_coman: hm, I
took 9 years from 1870 (bridge building started in 1871)
to 1879 (bridge collapsed one year after opening)
mp_en_viaje: my point being : gilkes DIED BANKRUPT. it's not
that bouch "did
the bad",
that he "left
the sacred principles of good engineering behind". if
this he did -- what did gilkes do, leave
the "sacred principles of businessmanship behind ?"
mp_en_viaje: diana_coman, from young
to old in
the
thirty years between 20 and 50, actually.
mp_en_viaje: hat
time.
the
things
they built,
that were ALL
THE
THINGS BUILT,
they built
together.
mp_en_viaje: which it was. but neither bouch, nor anyone else "accused" or "under suspicion" during
the proceedings -- all of
them his friends, incidentally,
the gilkes making dubious passive-agressive comments in
the vein of "knowing how
treacherous a
thing cast iron is, but if an engineer gave me such a
thing
to make I should make it without question, believing
that he had apportioned
the strength properly" had been his partner for
thirty years at
t diana_coman: hm; kind of got from young
to old in 9 years
though
mp_en_viaje: it was not self-evident at
the
time,
to
the participants,
that ALL
they had
to say reduced
to "we are younger men, and you are old. and it is our
time
to enthuse"
mp_en_viaje: then once
that bridge fell, all sorts of "unsympathetic" "expert" witnesses, who were in fact younger men, ~of
the coming generation~, and who in fact did get
to re-build all
the
things he either built or designed, had
things
to say.
mp_en_viaje: a decaded and change later, after
the queen (victoria!) was driven over water on
the result of
that madness, she liked it enough
to declare it fundamentally constituent and relevant part of her kingdom (different from
the realm she ruled, much like one's wife is different from
the woman living in his house, as a product of directed imagination, a projection of reason). he was knighted as a side-effect of
this.
mp_en_viaje: which
they did -- at
the
time
the first bridge over
the
tay was proposed (by him), everyone
thought it madness.
mp_en_viaje: he didn't remain in liverpool, but he returned home, and with a merry gang of equally enthusiastic entrepreneurs an' worldchangers he set out
to... change
the world.
mp_en_viaje: this fellow was a bright sixteen year old, who
took an apprenticeship in
the hot
thing of
the
time,
the one happening place for bright young minds : metalworking.
mp_en_viaje: fwis all
these apparent successes have hidden economic counters underneath
that are often not understood until a long
time passes.
diana_coman: or it gets pushed first and it becomes
the new fashion, "was
there any other way??"
mp_en_viaje: anyway, back
to
the point : who knows, given all
the passive resistance, code literacy may even have
to wait 1500-3500-wharever years.
mp_en_viaje: the greeks didn't have metal casting so never did
that.
mp_en_viaje: (originally,
these were wood, both in collieries and otherwise.
then metal sheeting was added on
top,
to reduce wear / improve friction.
then
to deal with
the buckle,
the rail became all-metal.)
mp_en_viaje: diana_coman, nope, involved no flooding. just dragged
the damned
things over specially made, elevated... rail.
mp_en_viaje: the loads guided with separate pin/groove arrangements, rather
than
the familiar wheel retainers, and
the
thing built out of wood. but, historically, a
TRAIN refers
to a horse-drawn wagon arrangement.
diana_coman: oh,
they moved
the boats on
that? I
thought
they had some part
to flood for
the purpose or something (because yes, isthmus is landmass)
mp_en_viaje: diana_coman, no,
the isthmus is landmass. it was basically wooden railroad.
mp_en_viaje: then
the concept
took a hiatus for a good baker's dozen centuries.
mp_en_viaje: incidentally :
the oldest...
trackway, shall we call it ? in
the world was in use since 600 bc
to about
the first century. it permitted boats
to cross
the isthmus of corinth, it was maintained and operated for
the general public like any other
tramway.
mp_en_viaje: but yes, code literacy is as novel a concept now as it was in knuth's
time, as it was in 600 ad.
mp_en_viaje: conceivably usage should be
the regulator of
that
diana_coman: basically code literacy has still quite a way
to go or something.
diana_coman: maybe;
to my eye
there is also
the annoying layer of "oh, I'm
too busy writing about MY stuff
to read (as in properly review and/or sign) other people's stuff.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-08 16:10:17 diana_coman: ...
too much silence.
mp_en_viaje:
http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-08#1954513 <<
this is not a problem peculiar
to
that particular corner, either. people who write, write. people who don't write, don't write.
the
two aren't really
the same
thing, you can give some rope so
type-1 individuals finding
themselves in a
type-2
tradition renounce and extricate
themselves. but
that's about as far as it goes.
diana_coman: by now I have stuff
to write up, down and every other way really.
mp_en_viaje: you should probably write
this up ; i'd like
to reproduce for one
thing and no, i never had nano crash yet.
diana_coman: it's
the first
time I manage
to crash nano like
this but I suppose it won't be
the last
time.
diana_coman: opened up a vpatch from a dir eg nano -wF patches/some.vpatch and
then from inside attempted
to open another vpatch
that was however in dir "a" - apparently it crashes; I did not yet spend more
time
to find out exactly why/where/how.
diana_coman: eh, let me hereby inform
the forum
that in my current investigations of v-tronicity, I have managed
therefore
to crash (repeatedly!)
the nano editor! with SIGFPE, arithmetic exception!
mp_en_viaje: seems
that he also said something along
these lines, making
the man-maintained space-tab distinction a bit of a monkeyism itself.
mp_en_viaje: the other node of
the argument,
to be perfectly fair, is
that a lang editor
that ~doesn't~ auto-tabulate is
thereby broken ; and perhaps
the case stands
that a language wherein
this can't be done -- is also broken.
mp_en_viaje: lotta windows users are like
that, most of
their keyboard usage is repetitive pressings on
the same key. which is i suppose how people even came up with
the "hey, make
the screen a single button and be done with it" next node of "improvement"
mp_en_viaje: much like all
the ooga-booga languages are suspect, and so on.
mp_en_viaje: for
that matter, running strings over
the output of one bringing up lots and lots of gggg pppp rrrrrrrr etc suggests monkley rather
than man involvement.
diana_coman: the \t
thing is at
times annoying because
the key is also mapped
to other stuff but
that is arguably a matter of "set
the workbench so it's not"
mp_en_viaje: it isn't a huge problem, which is why it wasn't particularly resolved,
then. or i guess now. or ever be
diana_coman: mp_en_viaje: I don't know re
that as such; ie I don't mind it either way, whether \t or space, I don't see it as a huge problem.
diana_coman: myeah; honestly, reviewing
the whole V-stuff,
the part
that bugs me most
turns around exactly
this sort of
thing:
the core idea as I see it was
that "code is
text" and
therefore it should be discussed and read and undersigned and referenced and all
that intertextuality and context and all; in practice
there are
the vtools providing some of
the mechanics,
there's a spread of discussions going every which way and otherwise
there's rather ...
mp_en_viaje: indeed it seems
to me one who's not capable
to on his own mental power discover how
to use
the button over
the caps lock and
the button between
the alts when first given a computer is also, and for
that archsufficient reason, not qualified
to ever
touch one, or be included in any computer anything.
mp_en_viaje: i expect
the discussion still stands now as
then : you can either do
the sane
thing or
the dumb
thing ; doing
the sane
thing's burdened by
the anal child argument
that indeed a lot of dumbasses have already been permitted
to shit into
the discussion
mp_en_viaje: i was firmly on
the \t ; asciilifeform did not like it, wanted
to do
the dumb
thing. ~nobody else said much on
the
topic, and he quashed discussion with "who's gonna fix all
the dumb code already written by all
the other dumb people"
mp_en_viaje: however
tabs can ONLY be described as \t. a succession of spaces IS NOT a
tab. only \t is a
tab. a succession of spaces is a succession of spaces, even if "it looks
the same" on some particular hw-sw combo
diana_coman: some people space code with \t precisely in
the idea
that you can set it
to whatever you want it
to be; others with spaces; and looking back
through
those discussions it seems
to go one way and
then
the other and overall I have no idea if
there was some conclusion
to
this or it remained up
to each vpatch author or whatevers.
mp_en_viaje: re not held
to replace all * with &ask; or wjhatever.
mp_en_viaje: no, \s is not ambiguous, it can only mean " ". for
the same money you
diana_coman: mp_en_viaje: do you mean
the vpatch should contain literally "\s" or what?
mp_en_viaje: forced-size
tabs are stupid, because maybe i want
the
tab displayed as eight, or maybe i want mine displayed as
two. it's not something
that should be fixed at write-time, much like paragraph flow is
to be decided when
the paragrap