373600+ entries in 0.233s
trinque: on
the SQL side you're more
than welcome
to create new sets at will via views
trinque: mircea_popescu:
the mismatch I was referring
to was
the object-relational-mapper; it cannot for example (easily, or usably) create a new object which is
the synthesis of n other objects done by inner join
jurov: but
that's hard AI, I'm afrraid
jurov: trinque i'd rather have lazy evaluator
that collects
the filters and operations I normally have in
the program, and compiles
them
together into optimized query and executes it only when
the result is needed
mircea_popescu: trinque can i get "this" and "that" comparisons of
the actual
thing ? "ceci n'est pas une pipe" "this is not a pipe" sort of
thing
trinque: these document stores are nothing more
than "What, you don't already know
the key of
the value you want?" and subsequently "Well fuck, how do we
tack relational ideas back onto
this, now
that we've abandoned all notion of formal structure?"
trinque: and
the observation which led
to databases in
the first place is
that questions like
the above arise constantly;
they are not
thought of once and etched into
the program in stone
trinque: I'm sure
this could be done rather well atop CLOS with no other monstrosities involved
trinque: jurov: I simply wish
to sit with my data-set and say "give me
the X for which
this lambda evaluates
true, retrieve its related Y and Z, compute
this aggregate over
the related Y and Z; do
this again with another lambda. Return
the paginated list of
the intersection of
the
two result sets"
trinque: myeah,
that
thing is a sin
jurov: some people went boldly
to solve RDBMS problem... and created MongoDB. *cringe*
kakobrekla: i havent used sqla, i guess its is probably similar
though i cant say for sure
trinque: use objects at
that layer?
kakobrekla: the layer on
top (at least mine) generates queries deterministically and
the result is not obstructed
trinque: nah, I am saying
the db is magic
to
the core.
kakobrekla: if you
think you have done away with magick using raw queries you are mistaken
trinque: aside
this, any work I'm doing in databases has been indefinitely postponed until I understand CLOS far better, and review what was done atop it
trinque: the usefulness of
this declarative mode is I
think as you describe, "get me a
that" damn it, because I want one.
trinque: this magic is why (as I understand it) asciilifeform abhors
the
thing; you have in no way been involved with what steps will be
taken
to compute
the result other
than describing
the result itself, barring again,
the places where actual programming crept back in
trinque: the huge problem with relational databases is
that
they conflated programming and declarative data access
to
the detriment of both
trinque: mircea_popescu │ kakobrekla no but seriously, i'm at least partly here
to learn, so what functionality is it ? like a good example. <<
this I
think calls for careful steps and a machete
kakobrekla: this one: <trinque> frustrate you by hiding functionality of
the underlying
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla no but seriously, i'm at least partly here
to learn, so what functionality is it ? like a good example.
kakobrekla: most folks most of
the
time dont need 'functionality', just like with sugar.
mircea_popescu: what is
this "chapter"
thing and why is it in your epub^H^H^H^H zipfile ?
mircea_popescu: seriously, leaving aside everything else, why
the fuck would you make
THIRTY EIGHT DIFFERENT FILES ?
mircea_popescu: i would much rather spend five minutes writing queries
than figuring why
the fuck copy *. doesn't work and ending up using cat
mircea_popescu: if you're going
to rule people you gotta be able
to somehow explain what you actually want done and raw queries are really not far off.
mircea_popescu: and honestly i don't mind it so much. about
the same as my life generally, really.
trinque: kakobrekla: it is amusing
though, yes,
that
this
that was originally intended
to be a user interface got buried as it did
kakobrekla: you dont need 'functionality'
to SELECT from wp-posts
mircea_popescu: the only way it could be useful is if it somehow intuited what
the columns are actually named for me so i don't have
to always keep checking
fluffypony: kakobrekla: I write raw queries a few
times a week
trinque: frustrate you by hiding functionality of
the underlying
mircea_popescu: i really have no idea why i'd want a language on
top of
that. what's it going
to do ?
mircea_popescu: pretty much every
time i want something from
trilema i SELECT by hand
kakobrekla: <trinque> SQL also, "lets make a language for accountants and other non-programmers" < yet is anyone still writing raw queries in
this day?
mircea_popescu: in other news, "you should perhaps point out
to your mother
that being ugly is no excuse
to rawdog drunks" is my new favourite insult.
mircea_popescu: as far as her dumb ass is concerned,
the best possible
train is a ghetto blaster with
the volume welded
to low, playing christmas carrols from under
the mirrors-ensconced speakers.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform same problem is why everyone hates what originally seemed obvious and intuitive :
the
text powered adventure
trinque: they at (the very) least made something of a double-back somewhere along
the language's history
trinque: interesting.
there you see
that abstraction increases complexity clearly, by way of an exaggerated case
mircea_popescu: which is why
this "no but math notation" argument is so bifurcacious.
assbot: Logged on 22-11-2015 16:23:54; mircea_popescu: i dunno why
the fuck
this point is so unobvious, but : most of
the intellectual gains humanity has made came after it decided
to do what science always does : arbitrarily clamp down on complexity in one place
to use
this as leverage against complexity elsewhere.
mircea_popescu: anyway, again not sure why
this isn't obvious, but
the alphabet is (still is, in spite of all
the "help" geeks gave it) a defined, closed, easily countable set.
jurov: they
try
to
take existing language and leverage it,
too
mircea_popescu: (it actually makes
the level raise slightly, but
that is part of
the "hope and pray" definition of abstraction yesterday - we hope and pray it dun matter.)
jurov: you explicitly named
the place as "use
these letters and fuck you and your ugly mother."
mircea_popescu: i said "clamp down in one place" not "reduce". how
the fuck are you goingto reduce complexity and why aren't you moving on
to entropy next!
jurov: adding a meaning for a word
that already has zillion of other meanings, instead of using dedicated symbol is NOT reducing complexity
mircea_popescu: a lot more
to do with
the brilliant idea of "use
these letters and fuck you and your ugly mother."
mircea_popescu: there is a fucking reason white people are better
than all
the other people, and it has jack shit
to do with
the skin.
mircea_popescu: i dunno why
the fuck
this point is so unobvious, but : most of
the intellectual gains humanity has made came after it decided
to do what science always does : arbitrarily clamp down on complexity in one place
to use
this as leverage against complexity elsewhere.
☟︎ jurov: i'd like
to see natural language applied
to programming,
too
kakobrekla: like feynman and his diagrams.
total idiot.
mircea_popescu: a) none of
these derps know any maths and b) i do and somehow survive. if you need a particular notation
to do maths either you're not very good or are
trying
to
talk
to idiots.
mircea_popescu: books are for german kids, really,
the sort
that grew up waddled at
the ankles.
mircea_popescu shudders at
the
thought he actually had
to "turn a page" every 1k bytes.
mircea_popescu: which i suppose counts for "368" pages in lalaland wherew
they do 1k characters per page.