345700+ entries in 2.606s
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A [500@0.95BTC] (since: 2012-07-29) paid: 2.76743 BTC. Last price: 0.51 BTC. Capital gain: -22 BTC. Total: -217.23257 BTC. (-45.7%)
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EskimoBob: yes, in this case you need to take the risk but you can plan your exposure for
a starting month in options market and start accumulate capital to run it properly
EskimoBob: the moment you plan and finance it the other way around, you will have
a good bond buyers market
mircea_popescu: which is why most people send towards the end of
a month.
smickles: mircea_popescu: suppose the 'bonds' people subscribe to were done with
a multisig transaction some how where the lender could recall the funds before they are used (or marked for use) by mpoe?
mircea_popescu: the btc market is by its nature in
a position where those liniar assumptions are harmful.
EskimoBob: one more question. have you done any fin planning for
a company?
smickles: his argument is lower operational costs means
a higher dividend
EskimoBob: oh lets not start that BS especially in
a case, where you buy money for more than you have to :)
EskimoBob: pass
a motion to accumulate some for operations
mircea_popescu: but i think
a laeger share of the price is due to the company/prospects than to the direct dividend.
mircea_popescu: if i wanted to run mpoe as
a private thing i could have continued to do so, indefinitely.
mircea_popescu: EskimoBob the way mpoe is set-up it's
a 0 capital venture. it has no capital of its own.
mircea_popescu: it varies, atm i have written
a lot of calls, others wrote
a lot of puts.
EskimoBob: and now we are at what I told you earlier - bond is not
a good way to finance stuff like that
mircea_popescu: this is
a big problem in btc cause it opens me up to being charged of various malfeasances.
mircea_popescu: and i don't want to, cause imo that's the main value of the entire thing, it allows me to have
a mpbor
copumpkin: but regardless, I'm not even going to try if there's
a chance my money will get tied up for
a period without any earnings on it at all
mircea_popescu: my curiosity was merely if this is the closest to
a bond that we have.
EskimoBob: smickles: in FRN you always have
a fixed+floating
mircea_popescu: smickles i could easily issue bonds at
a fixed rate and just shrug. it would break the current price discovery mechanism in the mpoe-bond inverse licitations tho
EskimoBob: I am just saying that this is not
a bond as we know bonds
mircea_popescu: the thing is tho, bear with me. you have
a math model that generates say 1%.
EskimoBob: call it mope-note, but not
a bond :)
smickles: if ppl are buying the things as is, why would mpoe change how they do things to
a better way which just happens to be
a little worse for mpoe?
EskimoBob: if you include
a "premium" - aka fixed rate coupon + risk reward, then you have
a FRN.
EskimoBob: We are talking about how
a good bond operates not what the fair % is
EskimoBob: this is the part that fuck it up
a bit
mircea_popescu: the bondholder gets
a share of theoretical gain EACH MONTH
mircea_popescu: you could easily put
a bond into mpoe, and on it offer your own insured bond at
a lower %
EskimoBob: only part I did not like is that your bond starts to act like something else when there is
a business loss involved
smickles: mircea_popescu actually has
a record of changing MPEx's insturments when shortcommings are pointed out
EskimoBob: I was actually thinking, is there
a better way to finance those deals
EskimoBob: mircea_popescu: do not take it personally but I think you need to rewrite it
a bit
EskimoBob: if you lose something on
a short/long option deal - do you go under?
mircea_popescu: you're describing
a very teoretical bond. this is how it works in
a world with no default.
EskimoBob: you loss, is yours and this is something you business partner have to talk to you about :) not "me" as
a bond holder
EskimoBob: If I lend you money, I do not want
a part of your business. All i want, is my money and %.
EskimoBob: if I lend you money, I do not give
a flying f how you earn it back (actually I do but lets keep it simple)
EskimoBob: mircea_popescu: you see, bond is
a loan. Equity is like lets build some stuff and I'll give you some money. What ever you build, part of it is mine and so are the profits...AFTER! the bonds are paid off (its debt)
mircea_popescu: from what i can see with mining "bonds"/FCVWs w./e the problem is depreciation is
a given
EskimoBob: if you get
a loan from me, and when you have
a loss, suddenly the loan acts like we share profit/loss - quity
mircea_popescu: you make x% unless the country fucks up, in which case you make
a loss.
mircea_popescu: then that'd be
a bond, but this bondholder-insured thing is not, for that reason ?
EskimoBob: if you out
a loan, then whn you have
a loss, suddenly it acts like we share profit/loss
EskimoBob: fuck mat, I am
a bond holder :) I do not care. I want mu coupon to buy milk ... LOL
mircea_popescu: there's no "i frak up tho", it's
a math model, it works the same
EskimoBob: lest me ask this, if you make
a killing on
a month, do bondholders get something extra?
EskimoBob: FRN will let you pay me
a premium % if you do well
EskimoBob: you see, you as
a bond issuer have to worry about insurance and this will lover the yield but increase the "secure" part of the deal
mircea_popescu: EskimoBob well, yeah. it'd be
a twin bond and insurance ?
EskimoBob: lets say you go for
a FRN. Yes. part of the coupon (% what you have to pay me) is fluctuating but no matter what, there is still
a fixed part of %
EskimoBob: now, the moment you make it in to
a "if I make you get..." things get more complicated
EskimoBob: the problem with bonds is: I as
a bond holder, do not rally "care" so you make or lose money. No matter what happens, you owe me the promised % and you are obligated to return the principal
BTC-Mining: Did he ever mine at all to start with? I suppose so or there wouldn't have been
a first few blocks. Unless he found
a few people not long before launched, pitched the concept, and they started to mine since day one that the code was released
mircea_popescu: has anyone done
a count of money that has not moved since the mtgox failure ?
BTC-Mining: noagendamarket: You know what's worse? I'm sure plenty of early adopters from the first months who were mining them
a plenty deleted their wallet and left because their thousands of bitcoins were worth
a few measly cents
mircea_popescu: my first day haha. after vragnaroda got me to sit still for long enough to comprehend why gpg wot is
a good idea
BTC-Mining: Like someone on the forum said, it takes quite
a bit of seeding and efforts to get an issue going.
noagendamarket: mircea_popescu no we havent. I havent traded otc for
a long time.
noagendamarket: or they pay dividends for
a short while from IPO funds then run off :/
BTC-Mining: and many issuers are not only anonymous, but they want people to invest in
a half done website/business
mircea_popescu: an ipo is the pinnacle of
a career, not
a sophomore year project.
mircea_popescu: you don't ipo as
a dood that doesn't even know what gpg is.
BTC-Mining: How would you achieve such
a thing as
a web of trust for assets?
coingenuity: imo, unless there is some kind of web of trust for bitcoin funded assets, its
a moot argument to me :P
noagendamarket:
A mining bond means you pay the operator for priviledge of loaning them money :)
BTC-Mining:
A bond is
a loan, it's tied to pay coupons AND pay back the full principal
mircea_popescu: but yea, it's really very contorted to define in fiat-terms what
a mining "bond" is.