308100+ entries in 0.203s
midnightmagic: On
the other hand,
this way copumpkin -- I
think -- can state
things about
the
transaction
that can't be known and nobody can say different. And MP for
that matter, which reduces
the
transaction
to
trust.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform while it's
true
that
the otr as implemented for say irc is dubious at best, his point remains :
midnightmagic: rve
the pubkey was revealed, and itself could assert
that
the one happened before
the other.
The difference is subtle. In OTR
the keys involved are supposed
to be shredded at
termination of
the conversation. copumpkin here is looking specifically for non-repudiability post-hoc which neither OTR nor your described scheme could give him.
midnightmagic: revealing
the key would break
the forward secrecy. But I know what you mean. Still, as described all an eavesdropper would have
to do
to fairly strongly prove
the authenticity of
the message is stamp it and assert
that
there's no evidence
the pubkey was revealed before
then.
That is, a
third-party passively listening
to
the conversation with self-assured reliability could watch it happen,
then obse
midnightmagic: I *think*
the OTR protocol uses a revealed MAC between
the parties *but more crucially, a stream cipher for malleable encryption* so
that at explicit
termination of
the conversation neither party can claim later
that
the other one definitely wrote something specific in
the log of each.
The deniable authentication protocol
therein doesn't reveal it
to
the public -- only
to
the other party. Publically
mircea_popescu: midnightmagic
the only legal proceeding contemplated will go on here. anyone seeking justice in
the new world must have a wot presence.
mircea_popescu: mpex is very carefully designed with various such
tradeoffs considered, an' i
think i've done enough free consulting on
the
topic for one day.
midnightmagic: (In order for
the hypothetical discovery
to successfully
take place, I mean.)
midnightmagic: MPEX would have
to cooperate absent signed receipts sent
to
the user.
midnightmagic: Where *would*
the
trail be in
the event a court were seeking assets.
mircea_popescu: the occurence of
things
that can't happen always
takes place in april.
ben_vulpes: what gulag name will you use for
this gig?
mircea_popescu: of course i wasn't
thinking of pig iron, rather, one of
the fiberglass / ceramic sorta
things with high magnetic dust included.
mircea_popescu: not even so expensive, given
that iron is crazy like
that.
mircea_popescu: i'd have
thought nicely made wheel out of paramagnetic alloy ;
then vary a field.
mircea_popescu: it's not illegal until you actually
try
to make an arrest or somesuch.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo re lafond's article - iirc you can buy surplus cruisers ; as well as various knick-knacks like body armor from afficionado stores (here
they're called cotillon stores).
mircea_popescu: nobody asked you
to do your stat process in
the same way you do other processes.
mircea_popescu: the stat is a single item.
these are separable for reasons.
copumpkin: why is it any different
to sign my slip asking for a subset of
that?
copumpkin: if my estranged wife goes
to you and asks for it
mircea_popescu: all possible views
that don't conform can
take a hike.
mircea_popescu: mpex is made
to serve a certain view on
this world, not all possible views.
mircea_popescu: such as for instance in divorce proceedings, or whatever
the fuck.
mircea_popescu: and so we go
through
this a coupla
times and
then i go you know what, just register a deed already,
this is getting ridiculous
copumpkin: before
they accept my claims
that you're being dishonest,
they'll want proof
that I actually asked you for money
copumpkin: in some sort of suitable public shaming forum, like
this one
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, reddit/bitcoin apparently mass-downvoting
the story of bitbet NOT being a scam ?
copumpkin: so I claim on reddit
that I have a balance, and you keep claiming
that you never get my orders
mircea_popescu: inasmuch as you get your stat signed and
timestamped, you should be fine.
copumpkin: if you don't honor a withdrawal,
that's different
copumpkin: I'm saying
that it's fine if you don't honor a sell order of mine
mircea_popescu: this "that's fine" device, lolz. what's it supposed
to accomplish ? you can't set aside what i say.
copumpkin: that's fine. But signing my slips still gives me a verifiable paper
trail of
the
things I attempted
to have you do, whether or not you guarantee doing
them. It gives me an avenue
to claim
that you've at least seen and acknowledged an order, even if execution is best-effort
mircea_popescu: there's degrees
there.
the guarantee you're offered is
that you won't be losing your balance ; not
that you won't have orders lost.
copumpkin: I could
then store
those signatures and chew you out publicly in
the case of a dispute
copumpkin: your gpg-centric system could give me
that by simply signing a fingerprint of my commands
copumpkin: all I'm saying is
that with
today's system, I have no cryptographic paper
trail
that you've actually received
the commands I expect you
to have received
mircea_popescu: and
there's no inefficiency in
the system as it is, for it is simple.
the inefficiency begins once you expect
to have a 2nd "superior" channel on
top of
the slips. which will
then have
to be managed.
copumpkin: a)
the coins have already been sent
to
the wrong place. Perhaps I'm not "liable" and have a claim, but it's adding inefficiency
to
the system if you have
to cover for a mistake which could've been avoided in
the first place
mircea_popescu: a) "too late" for what ; b) if
there's an old slip of yours, it either has an address
that was paid in it or not. if it does,
then it doens't matter ; if it doesn't, you have a claim.
copumpkin: yes, but I have no receipt acknowledgment of
that signed slip. You've just acknowledged getting some slip, and are not committing
to any particular slip of mine. If you mess up your book-keeping, you might dig up an old signed slip of mine making a different request
to a different address, and I'd have nothing
to
talk
to you about until after it was
too late
mircea_popescu: it'll be
too late for what ? i have your signed slip, it's what it is.
copumpkin: the only way I'll find out is by waiting 48 hours, at which point it'll be
too late
copumpkin: there's no acknowledgment of
the parameters of
the withdrawal. For all I know you
think I want a completely different amount,
to a completely different address :P
mircea_popescu: not so sure
that is good practice, general or otherwise.
copumpkin: mircea_popescu: also, as general good practice, it'd probably be good
to include
the address and amount of
the withdrawal in
the message, perhaps with a date. Currently
the message is a constant, so
the signature on it feels a little less valuable
copumpkin: "Your withdrawal request has been received and will be processed. Note
that all withdrawals are verified manually, and
they may
take up
to 48 hours for approval. If 48 hours have ellapsed and you still haven't received your bitcoins please contact mircea_popescu in #bitcoin-assets. Note
that if your account at
the
time of processing holds fewer BTC
than your withdrawal,
this order will be executed up
to
that limit. Also, please
mircea_popescu: maybe
the new bash works by searching for "fucking bash"
trinque: sorry about
that guys. I left a
tcpdump running
to catch
the SSL weird and filled my disk
mircea_popescu: well, fuck you. my
teleomers lengthen by watching others shorten, just like my cock gets hard by watching women spend each other.
mircea_popescu: you should, at least in fucking principle, get infinitely better results by just picking all
the easy fruits and normalizing everyone's head
to fucking semblance of sanity.
mircea_popescu: much like independence is deliberately not
taught
to girl-cows in agrarian societies, sanity is deliverately anti-taught
to smart kids in socialism. so what ?
mircea_popescu: but
the problem here
to my eyes is
that
there really is no motherfucking reason for
the meta-brain
to act like if made of plasticine. really, figuring out
the memory hole effect is
THAT hard ?
mircea_popescu: the problem with
the "we'll just superimpose differently spiked circles into
this ball of wrecking" solution is
that well...