log☇︎
31000+ entries in 0.201s
mircea_popescu: i still don't know what promise is supposede to have been made!
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, tbh I keep thinking that I'd rather have at least someone in l1 signing a binary before I run it but I'm not even sure that makes sense atm without imposing therefore on l1 to build the binary
asciilifeform: even considering machine cycles to cost 0 -- the expense is psychological, of introducing promisetronics ( and , inescapably, doubt ) where it does not absolutely necessarily belong. but i risk repeating self.
mircea_popescu: i still don't see what this expense is to be here.
diana_coman: at any rate, atm I'd have even more nightmares with server under my pillow!!!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i wasn't proposing this be a default. too soon for that, in any case. i was proposing this may have merit & utility.
asciilifeform: as mircea_popescu pointed out, i do same thing on numerous occasion
asciilifeform: i dun actually have any problem with idea of trade secret, where mircea_popescu & diana_coman keep their server to themselves under pillow etc.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: it is possible that i misread the entire thread, but my understanding was that it was about considering the idea of no longer defaulting to open publication of e.g. cuntoo
mircea_popescu: Mocky why wouldn't you just act like a sane human being and tell them, "hey, i'd like to participate / work on this project."
asciilifeform: diana_coman: idea being, secrets have a place, if i did not believe this i would not have any interest in crypto. but their place is ~where must~, not ~wherever possible~
Mocky: what if someone in l1 wants to one day make eulora client, has access to src of all clients to date. If it was me in l1 and it were another who was client author, I think I would hesitate to make my own client
diana_coman: asciilifeform, hm, I don't follow/think it's an apt metaphor there
mircea_popescu: diana_coman on re-read, i agree, suboptimal wording on my part (owing, principally, to lack of terminology)
asciilifeform: i do not buy cockroach repellents, because my house has no cockroaches.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: it is precisely because i do not see a public outside of l1, that i regard the idea of 'l1-only publications' as in most cases wrongheaded
mircea_popescu: i suppose this is not an undefensible read.
diana_coman: it's true it was worded with that hook in it and I bit on it first for sure but I'm reading it more and more as "we make it public; but what public is there outside l1??"
diana_coman: asciilifeform, tbh I'm seeing it less and less as a "keep secrets" thing
asciilifeform: 1 problem , i suspect, is that keeping secrets is a ~pleasurable~ and addictive dope, and very often becomes a satisfying but entirely pointless substitute for actual work
mircea_popescu: i thought those were mostly the result of widespread illiteracy in the ss.
asciilifeform: i guess my problem is that i can't picture any end of this road that doesn't resemble ck-kpss and 'senate intelligence committees' etc.
diana_coman: I honestly don't see why would it be a problem to share with x but not with y in l1
mircea_popescu: (i suppose you technically have to keep it around, if it happens you're stuck with somethign else you want in a bundle, but anyways)
diana_coman: my understanding of it so far is that code is made accessible to l1 only i.e. not delivered to each personally and requiring a stamp or something
mircea_popescu: Mocky i don't imagine it's a firm "all l1 absolutely or no deal". it was just phrased exemplarily.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: with hygrometer at 80% mark where i sit, i would also like some sahara air. but prolly not for perma-habitation.
mircea_popescu: and i suppose this is where i insert an important distinction, the lack of which perhaps informed most of alf's earlier protests : provided l1 has code asdiscussed, there are two, very strictly distinct, leaks. 1. is when x guy in lordship shares it with y guy not in lordship. 2. is when x guy in lordship ~publishes~, which is to say, shares with ~unspecified~ outsiders.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i liked sahara air. did not like landscape at all, desert's fucking depressing, but anyways.
mircea_popescu feels the urge to include "- the human animal is a beast that dies and if he's got money he buys and buys and buys and I think the reason he buys everything he can buy is that in the back of his mind he has the crazy hope that one of his purchases will be life everlasting!—Which it never can be… " for the pleasure of future readers.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as i understand they ain't ants, they are wired for 'food is to be looked for in immediate vicinity, when hungry'. think 'grasshopper', not 'ant', in aesopian terminology.
mircea_popescu: let me tell you something about the crabs, i found fascinating last i was getting a beach blowjob. so, they all move in ~same direction, as far as eye can see, thousands of them. and as you say, right, "all that is mine i carry with". now, if they happen to run into some food, they'll stop a little, have a little, MOVE ON. they make 0 attempt to ~carry the food~. or even search for it.
phf: mircea_popescu: playstation was/is backwards compatible, i'm not sure about xbox, could also be
asciilifeform: but point is, they were 'embedded system', 'all that is mine, i carry with me, said the snail'
asciilifeform: 1980s nintendos , fed their old cartridges, still work today. ( and when not work -- there are even folx to repair'em. ) i had colleague who had an entire room of these.
mircea_popescu: me too, but i didn't like the sort of crowd it created. years later i read what zappa had to say about disco crowd, almost exactly the same sentiment.
asciilifeform: but i grasp the general principle.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'll admit that i'm utterly innocent of consolism, with the exception of 1 occasion where i purchased an ancient 'virtual buy' to cut, with hacksaw, apart for the optics
mircea_popescu: i am surprised this is so.
asciilifeform: Mocky: i wouldn't put it past microshit to fuck up even this. but in principle yes.
mircea_popescu: i dunno specifically ; im not sure he ever said. ☟︎
asciilifeform: how the fuck do i even say обосновать in engl
mircea_popescu: wtf, i was giving an example.
mircea_popescu: i didn't make this world ; i'm just trying to live in it.
mircea_popescu: what can i tell you.
mircea_popescu: which, i'm told, is the true basis of all happy marriages.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but i ~didn't propose that~ in 2016, either, did i.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman well because say mocky does the release. ima frown if his release sucks, and he doesn't want that ; and his toolchain is to be expected better than literally rando camwhore's, "i dunno how kleopatra works". neh ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: observe that so far, at least as visible from my tower, i've succeeded in this. whereas if i had distributed the whole kit in february of 2016, to kako et al, chances are that wouldn't.
mircea_popescu: but even that aside, i still don't see wtf is wrong with "we'll produce sane binaries instead of waiting for whatever shit-kit rando luser has to spit out whatever it does".
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as i suspect the folx who stole phuctor v.1 and v.2 src discovered, and prolly not much surprise to anybody else, phuctor is not a fully automatic mechanism. it requires asciilifeform's hands , applied on fairly regular basis, to function correctly. sorta like phf's logtron, for instance.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: earlier in this thread i did shed some light re why.
mircea_popescu: and no, you've not published phuctor, nor liked the idea. shall i quote you or can you quote yourself ?
asciilifeform: that's asciilifeform position nao -- i'ma post whatever, because why exactly not. FG src and schem is public, etc.
mircea_popescu: that's why i'm not fucking concerned of "l1 leaks". who the fuck are they going to leak TO ? the goats ?
mircea_popescu: i have to fucking compile every thing the 9000th time, i can't just put binary images on my 9001th rockchip ?! ☟︎
asciilifeform: trinque: i fully expect that when we finally get the hell off c , there'll be no moar of 'distributing bootstrap bins'
asciilifeform: sure, but i gotta point out that the proposed win from distributing bins, is illusory.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: releasing binaries does not create this guarantee. even static elf, when put on a box where linus et al (or his successor) see it fit to subtly change the abi, will bomb, and not necessarily immediately. and i'ma still 'be idiot' ☟︎
asciilifeform: for all i know, somewhere there exists a d00d who tried to build e.g. trb on a vax. and thinks asciilifeform is idjit, because it dun go. how's that skin off my back.
asciilifeform: what is gained from having there exist a drepperized systemd thing ? or what am i missing
mircea_popescu: but i mean... lookit, the author will make a static binary ; and who the fuck is going to make a drepper systemd thing ?
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: this release paradigm has the advantages that 1. permits us to control binaries, which means stuff like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834888 (which i'm very much impressed with, btw) ; 2. permits to reserve some interest for the author, because the strategic thinking over at minigame is that we'll want client competition (from skinning all the way to all the way) and remuneration by installs (hence all that hash dance in
asciilifeform: relatively compact -- and, more importantly -- short-lived -- seekrits -- are practical. e.g. i send BingoBoingo a qntra item, gpggrammed so as not to get scooped by heathens. next hour it gets published openly.
asciilifeform: i'm struggling and failing to come up with a scenario where it doesn't ultimately land you in the same hot pot of ridiculous boiling oil as usg boils in.
mircea_popescu: like i dunno, don't up all idiots so they shiot the log. thart's not a confidence ?
mircea_popescu: nono, i didn't mean you and me. i meant, l1.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform really ?! we have all sorts of things in confidence i thought!
diana_coman: asciilifeform, as I understand it, this is first and foremost a political statement; the gains are not from "oooh, you don't know my ugly code"
mircea_popescu: how is the described process cost anything ? i dun get it. because deedbot ends up storing tons of loc ?
asciilifeform: i don't specifically know how mircea_popescu proposes to limit distribution of src . but , say, l1-ciphered encyclicals would count
mircea_popescu: are you talking to what i'm saying or to what some other guy mighv'e said that was also an idiot ?
mircea_popescu: i don't expect it lost anything. what did it gain ?
asciilifeform: i dun see what seekrecy adds.
asciilifeform: imho dealing in signed material obviates whatever problem of 'am i dealing with human'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the cost -- 'opposability' -- mircea_popescu gives me a magic proggy, nao i have to guard it and be answerable for loss
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, there is of course the fact that l1 is neither for life nor perhaps yet all that difficult to get in and out - I don't know whether this is a l1 matter or a s.mg board matter ☟︎
asciilifeform: phf: in my particular case, phuctor backend is unpublished specifically because i do not want to encourage people to build on top of it. when i am killed, i'd hope that if folx still feel a desire for a phuctor they will take what asciilifeform ~publicly~ wrote on subj, and make a superior one, rather than trying to maintain the old ball of hack.
mircea_popescu: i do not presently believe it is ~possible~ to not to ; idiotic socialistoidisms aside. and no, i don't think the world, or even the garbage bin, of the "idealistic" "visionary" nonsense, either.
mircea_popescu: phf i do not believe the bus factor is even remotely important there.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, ah, that helps actually - I think I'm getting a better idea of what you're aiming at
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I know, I'm just trying to figure out what this would mean
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i dun have any ideological allergy to 'proprietary proggy', but must point out that the historical examples are uninspiring, pretty much erryone who was specifically trying to win from limiting distribution of sores, did not win, quite the opposite.
mircea_popescu: "mp is a poopyhead" i guess.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't aim, not to accomplish nor to anything. but i wrote it down! by numbers! what i imagine the outcomes to be.
asciilifeform: i guess the part i dun grasp, is what exactly mircea_popescu would wish to accomplish by making a proprietary proggy & distributing src to anointed folx
mircea_popescu: i don't specifically know whether this would work well for systems work. but we're starting this discussion with a ~client~. 99% of people WANT the binary in thew first place.
asciilifeform: sure. but i can picture scenarios where this makes sense, and would like to see the 'unsexy', practical pov of 'how' elaborated in the l0gz.
mircea_popescu: i'm not saying this is for everyone.
asciilifeform: hm i must've missed something -- keep what secret
mircea_popescu: thoughts plox! (and i specifically want everyone to say at least an ack, so let's page asciilifeform ave1 ben_vulpes BingoBoingo danielpbarron diana_coman hanbot lobbes mod6 phf spyked trinque ) ☟︎☟︎☟︎☟︎
mircea_popescu: this release paradigm has the advantages that 1. permits us to control binaries, which means stuff like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834888 (which i'm very much impressed with, btw) ; 2. permits to reserve some interest for the author, because the strategic thinking over at minigame is that we'll want client competition (from skinning all the way to all the way) and remuneration by installs (hence all that hash dance in ☝︎☟︎
mircea_popescu: as we're contemplating an eulora client rewrite, i am contemplating the following code release paradigm : client author a) releases code encrypted to l1, signed and deeded (so basically, gpg -aer asciilifeform -r ave1 -r etc) ; b) releases precompiled binaries for allcomers. ☟︎☟︎☟︎
mircea_popescu: in other news, here's something i want to put before the lordship :
asciilifeform: i suspect that 'only tip of iceberg' re autoconf breakage has been seen so far.
diana_coman: I guess I'll need to dig into the configure script to figure this one out if nobody saw it before, huh
diana_coman: basically I have zlib installed and I even checked: it IS in /lib but ./configure doesn't consider it fine ☟︎
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i was building a client for it.
asciilifeform: trinque: plox correct me if i'm wrong re subj
a111: Logged on 2015-04-06 08:34 mircea_popescu: "In this article I am going to show you how to create an executable that runs arbitrary code if it's examined by `ldd`. I have also written a social engineering scenario on how you can get your sysadmin to unknowingly hand you his privileges."