302800+ entries in 0.19s
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what's
the standard
term of "enthalpy equivalent in
turing machines" ?
the shannon factor ?
mircea_popescu: phf if you use -> ambiguously nobody will be able
to
think about
this, you least of all.
mircea_popescu: thinking about it, my enthalpy-based objections seem
to come out of left field. somehow it seemed obvious
to me
that
this property of "cone of knowledge" as per particle physics is part of v,
phf: antecedent relationship goes backwards
though. x<-y perhaps means y points at x as a parent without x's knowledge
phf: right,
that's
the basic principle
mircea_popescu: phf
think of it like
this : if letter comes earlier in alphabet, item it denotes comes earlier in
time-entalpy.
mircea_popescu: or fuck, seems somehow Z is
the antecedent of everything nao ?
phf: ah, in which case you preserve
the idea of "edge in means possible
transition"
mircea_popescu: in my mind,
these
two are not ambiguous, because correctly working graphaton would represent
them respectively as
phf: mircea_popescu: X<-Z Y<-Z,
that means
that having press
to X you can now press Z on
top OR having pressed
to X you can now press Z on
top. alternatively it can mean, in order
to press Z you need both X and Y pressed.
mircea_popescu: i
thought so
too, but
then again
this guy's leet py script beat my bash hackery outta water, so let's hear him out.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform understand, it's not just
that "if we can't get v
to be easily intuitive it won't see mass adoption". it's moreover
that if v isn't reducible
to crystal fucking clear, we fucked something up.
phf: wait, i
think i utterly confused
the issue. one sec let me restate it
phf: the second meaning is, and
that one comes up since we have multiple files
to a patch, in order
to press x i need both y and z.
mircea_popescu: oh, something like "either y or z could be pressed on
top of x" yeah ok
phf: let's say you have x->y z->y. in
the first case it means "i can press y on
top of x" OR "i can press y on
top of z"
phf: one is
that edge can indicate independent
transitions vs all dependents
phf: so
there are
two issues with
the
thinking down
that line
mircea_popescu: right. and in
the example given, X->Z (or rather, Z > X) is not a connection
to origin.
mircea_popescu: phf "how did i end up with z and what's its connection
to origin"
phf: and ~not~ anything related
to a working press
phf: i
think
the problem is "what does v graph supposed
to communicate
to
the viewer"
mircea_popescu: i mean socially. whether we have a
technical problem or not is part of
the problem.
mircea_popescu: and phf has a point in
that it's not even a very well understood one.
mircea_popescu: still,
this is a problem in search of a good solution.
shinohai: The official
tmsr roll 'o duct
tape.
mircea_popescu: i was
thinking yest, "the solution here prolly is
to forbid X containing multi As".
mircea_popescu: yeah, asciilifeform and i
think it's
time
to specify
that rope.
mircea_popescu: back
to
the issue of substance.
the idea is
that whatever any current implementation may do, a situation where : 1) X
takes A from 1
to 2 and B from 1
to 2 ; 2) Y
takes A from 2
to 3 and B from 3
to 3 and 3) Z
takes A from 2
to 4 and B from 3
to 4 should be represented as X->Y->Z only, and not as X->Y->Z, X->Z
phf: well,
there's no issue with
that graph presentation, because it produces correct press. it's just
that graph is "meaningless" without
the
toposort. visualizing it doesn't answer any question beyond "this and
that share a hash"
mircea_popescu: irl fragile parts like windows get a paint X on
them, but here no such luck.
mircea_popescu: and as more people get involved
this will be our bane, because it's really fucking difficult
to correctly mark
the walls and
the scaffolding.
mircea_popescu: phf
the
thing remains, it's risky
to
take
tmsr prototypes and extract meaning as if
they were definitive canonical implementations of concepts.
they aren't, yet.
phf: mircea_popescu: in
the example
that i gave, get_ante is
the function
that establishes graph edges
mircea_popescu: i
think mod6's might actually
try
to press on
the basis of "has ONE antecedent"
a111: Logged on 2016-05-08 14:15 phf:
that's
the behavior of
the original v where
the graph doesn't communicate any additional information beyond "shares a hash"
phf: that's
the behavior of
the original v where
the graph doesn't communicate any additional information beyond "shares a hash"
☟︎ phf: mircea_popescu: i don't
think
that's a bug,
that's more of a conceptual
thing.
phf: that's not my definition by
the way,
that's how
the graph is constructed inside v.py (v99.py:143 get_ante)
phf: so
the fact
that Z requires b 3 is irrelevant, since Z also requires a 1
phf: in v's definition of antecedent,
the only requirement is "share a single hash"
a111: Logged on 2016-05-08 04:11 mircea_popescu: phf>
the graph for
that is X->Y->Z, X->Z <<
this is incorrect.
the graph for
that is "X->Y->Z". "X->Z" is not correct because Z requires b 3 and x does not provide b3.
ben_vulpes:
http://archive.is/637lm << unrelatedly, don't you want
to stay at
the cow cave?
the akita house? perhaps
the host of
the kangaroo
treehouse's beguiling pose will entice you into a rental. if none of
those appeal, consider pug palace, cow boat, or
the cottage cheese cottage
ben_vulpes: produces
the same hash as
the submitted file
ben_vulpes: anyways, should you care
to, you can now also `curl -L -F "pastebox=@foo.txt" wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com`
mod6: ben_vulpes: is
there a way
to get around
this?
mod6: Oh, and a cat! Which, in absolute fairness, was by far
the most intelligent local present. << haha
mircea_popescu: back in ro glory days
there were a few people in various ministries doing just
that
mircea_popescu pictures alf in NOC with
trilema rss scrolling on alrge screen
mod6: shinohai: dangit. i curl'd
that wotpaste and i got a different hash output
mod6: im pretty well convinced
that what I have constructed works fine.
mod6: im
talking about
the hash of
the vpatch file itself.
mod6: asciilifeform: are you
talking
to me?
mircea_popescu: or at least i can't seem
to reorder it into something
that seems reasonable.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i re-read what he's saying, i'm not even sure we actually grasp what
the man is
trying
to say.
mod6: then copy
the funk vpatch into patches dir
mod6: further, use `v' and ensure
that your patches dir is up
to date with
the mirror. if you're not sure, just mv your patches dir
to like 'patches.old' and
then use 'init'
to get
the latest.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> 'no conflict' is fuzzy and introduces potential of subtle breakage << i agree with
this view, for
the reasons stated. same hash has
to be
the criterion.
mod6: if you grab
this, and it didn't get munged, you should end up with
this hash: 6eaa543333746c11069ff9ca85aaa6330419d0be95de21fafcdbd500e1bc6df2ef10c2dc1d104b15cb50da7b362eac6bf1ddf3830329367b31c1e59e1dc3c6a9