log☇︎
292900+ entries in 0.188s
asciilifeform: it uses nothing previously existing, and will be a genesis in any possible tree where it appears.
asciilifeform: 'ffz', item i am working on now, is the finite field integer library.
asciilifeform: imho mircea_popescu is catastrophically missing the point re the genesis thing:
mircea_popescu: ignorance of the patches is scant defense.
asciilifeform: no need to 'read both'.
asciilifeform: if diff x1 x2 is nil, then NOPE
mircea_popescu: there may not be any such "we see". if both you and him introduce "item x", the only approach is to read both.
asciilifeform: then we can see that my item and his have ~same~ antecedent.
mircea_popescu: hardly. you sign yours, he signs his and that's that.
asciilifeform: it is worth the mention when somebody else steals precisely same thing (because it was, say, hamlet) and stands a patch on ~it~
phf: well, it attempts to solve same problem that the vectors were solving, i.e. introducing code that you're not ready to reasonably support
mircea_popescu: world is not worth the mention.
mircea_popescu: but understand this clearly alf : the difference between "i produced this" and "i stole this from washington" is nil. if you stole it or wrote it - YOU PRODUCED IT.
phf: well, yes, that's the intent, but i'm saying that i'm not sure there's value in "i found this" when it breaks "i make this part of whole"
asciilifeform: how the fuck does it 'break the tree'
mircea_popescu: no such separation is desired. moreover, breaking the tree is outright catastrophic.
asciilifeform: phf: point was to separate 'i found this' from the 'and then i changed x,y,....'
asciilifeform: testament that 'yes this is what i had on optic disk for last 10y'
mircea_popescu: the pedigree, if it exists, comes from "i asciilifeform read this and i goes off genesis". nowhere else.
asciilifeform: but it is not outside. the signed pedigreed tarball is a vtronic creation (in the respective cases, mine and mircea_popescu 's)
phf: yeah, i found that point of tinyscheme somewhat confusing. i understand asciilifeform's intent of "this is how i found tarball", but it seems to contradict wot aspects of v
mircea_popescu: the notion that some sort of "pedigree" from outside v is worth two shits is the only fart here.
asciilifeform: using what pedigree there actually is - e.g., mircea_popescu's signed pgp tarball - is part of this.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it has to burn with proper petrol, farts are not enough.
mircea_popescu: and generally - the whole fucking world burns.
mircea_popescu: there may not exist any sort of pedigree, even as a notion, other than from one of our genesis.
asciilifeform: and makes whole thing into a 'trust me plox'
mircea_popescu: possibly because trying to subvert the whole thing by having "multiply loadable libraries" or whatever. in any case : you can trivially just make it depend on genesis and be done wit hthe whole story.
asciilifeform: but ~deliberately~ went from ~pedigreed tarball~
asciilifeform: does mircea_popescu recall why i did the tinyscheme genesis the way i did ?
mircea_popescu: same reason someone who wants to participate here starts by reading the log, not by "wholly formed" delusional nonsense.
asciilifeform: and i seriously fail to see why mircea_popescu is barfing
asciilifeform: it joins the party wholly formed.
asciilifeform: tinyscheme did not chain off any previously standing thing.
mircea_popescu: it still has to either a) chain off an existing element or b) not be part of the story.
asciilifeform: elementarily, any patch that sprouts matter out of the aether without affecting anything presently standing.
asciilifeform: dun matter what we call it, there can and often will be >1.
trinque: this does not contradict the fact that the more the world looks like me, the happier I am
trinque: mircea_popescu │ the problems only begin when trinque goes on a jwz rampage "i only wanted the offspring to sprout, not rob the store". << I agree 100% that offspring are in any sane scenario mine to end
mircea_popescu: would it be better if instead of genesis we called it terminator ?
asciilifeform: doesn't have to be mine
asciilifeform: srsly read the code, of ANYBODY's vtron
asciilifeform: how the fuck is this 'state of sin
mircea_popescu: no graph of mine is ever going into this state of sin.
asciilifeform: 1) trb-genesis
mircea_popescu: how teh hell would thatr be the case.
asciilifeform: as would be the case in a mircea_popescuated shiva trb.
asciilifeform: of which there can be >1 !
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform tru. but it ends up SOMEWHERE.
asciilifeform: the press head results in walking backwards in time, to the genesis.
mircea_popescu: the obvious usage is due to it being <project-name>-genesis. but yeah.
asciilifeform: thing is, operator doesn't specifically start from anything. he specifies a press head (if that. in one variant contemplated earlier by mircea_popescu, one does not even specify press head, but instead walk longest chain having sigs S1...Sn)
mod6: i think that it makes it confusing if we call it 'v-genesis'
mircea_popescu: mod6 : if you're building trb, you start from a trb genesis. if you're building V (via V), you start from a V genesis. and so on.
asciilifeform: any other usage is nyooz to me.
asciilifeform: mod6: per my v, that and only that is what a 'genesis' is.
mod6: in way that asciilifeform lays it out, in the sense that this vpatch would start from 'false' and end on 'SOME_HASH' and create a file(s)|directory(ies) that did not previously exist, then yes a 'genesis' but only on concept - not in name. as we shouldn't not confuse the two imho.
mircea_popescu: the problems only begin when trinque goes on a jwz rampage "i only wanted the offspring to sprout, not rob the store".
asciilifeform: granted if trinque ~specifically~ gets off on watching the offspring sprout, there is little that can be done for him by engineer.
asciilifeform: to make the activity INDISTINGUISHABLE from exactly the wanted thing, minus the undesired sequelae.
asciilifeform: ^ this is PRECISELY what i mean by cutting apart.
mircea_popescu: there's a difference between "can not be cut apart" and "sometimes you get a hankering for bareback ; so you make sure the bitch's on the pill"
mod6: so maybe, everyone's call, including yours for a 'v-genesis' vpatch had me thrown that it should be a 'genesis' and not a simple vpatch to what currently already exists out there.
trinque: I have always been aware of this aspect of sex when taking part in it
trinque: as if there are zero instincts towards spreading seed in the male side of the act of sex
a111: Logged on 2016-01-19 21:55 ascii_butugychag: pete_dushenski: try to understand the perspective of inventor. for x,xxx years churchmen prattled on about sex and reproduciton 'cannot cut apart'. and now they can go get stuffed.
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-19#1377638 << is it just me, or does this seem ridiculous ☝︎
asciilifeform: note, elementarily it finds its way back to the genesis (or dies trying) and there is never any need to ~specify~ a genesis or the like.
mod6: that's all i was trying to say :]
mod6: don't worry about that. paint me a picture on how you might go about the task - how and where does t.pl go? or v.pl ?
asciilifeform: the latter is the union of all of your ~possible~ trustcones.
mod6: this would sit adjacent to the 'bitcoin' directory? (just trying to get a visual in my head here)
mircea_popescu: mod6 each genesis carves it's own "universe", of possible patches. asciilifeform prefers to call this universe "light cone". it could perhaps be argued that the applicable patches as shaped by your trusted keys is more properly your light cone, though might as well call it "trust cone" and be done with it
mod6: so what would your implementation look like here? a patch to a current leaf of the trb patches that inflates say t/t.pl from 'false' on the end of the trb 'light-code' ?
asciilifeform: light cone is what you get when you find the intersection of one particular observer's notion of 'i can see WHOLE UNIVERSE!1111' with... reality.
mod6: so we either have ~one~ universe, or there is >1
asciilifeform: the thing i was trying to invoke there was situation with, e.g., ancient greeks, who cite works that are no longer around.
mod6: don't add nsa's key to your wot, and you wont see that patch right?
asciilifeform: this idea only ever could become actually important as time marches on and things are lost.
asciilifeform: in that i COULD use it (if i took enough dope)
asciilifeform: say it turns out that nsa was using v, and their patch leaks, even this is 'part of my lightcone'
asciilifeform: 'light cone' is simply ALL vpatches, by ANYONE, that you know about.
asciilifeform: mod6: not the concept i had in mind.
mod6: so we are agreed then that things outside of the trb light-cone, get its own light-cone - a multiverse of things, yeah?
asciilifeform: (simply add comment in the part1 items as part of part2 patch)
asciilifeform: if anybody wants to roll shiva in as part of his lineage, i recommend linking up part1 and part2 as mircea_popescu describes here.
asciilifeform: since the last time we had this thread.
asciilifeform: actually i'm sold on this
mircea_popescu: and to my eyes this is an essential point of wtf we're even doing here in the first place.
mircea_popescu: there is not nor should there be such a rthing as "dual headed".
asciilifeform: the only way to build shiva is by pressing dual-headed.
mircea_popescu: so then...
asciilifeform: this is quite true.
mircea_popescu: actually : a v build that, upon pressing genesis, includes 1-of-2 is ipso facto broken.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in the sense that it fails to attack to the tree it is very broken. i have no idea why a v build would even include it.
asciilifeform: so they are not v-relatives.
asciilifeform: part 2 DOESN'T TOUCH part 1
mircea_popescu: part 2 of 2 behaves correctly in teh tree.
mircea_popescu: yeah ; well iirc that was a broken early experimental attempt by you ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/patches/asciilifeform_shiva_part_1_of_2 << the shiva genesis.