ninjashogun: benderp - I would have to be very very lucky to get an MVP up in a weekend; I'd have to know exactly what I would want on it, and it would have to be very limited scope.

ninjashogun: benderp - it doesn't just take a weekend. Part of what I'm doing is the ideation portion. For example I'm soliciting mirceau's feedback on just one aspect right now.

ninjashogun: benderp - I'm sure mircea_popescu can correct me if it's relevant

ninjashogun: So I would solve this via another fact. People, especially highly technical people, know that if "you are not paying for a product, you ARE the product".

ninjashogun: benderp - I thought I read that he took a large BTC investment, for one thing.

ninjashogun: If I put an MVP I code in a weekend online, and put it on hackernews and maybe reddit, it would not have profiles in the beginning.

ninjashogun: not in the beginning (I mean during the weekend-launch period!)

ninjashogun: (and I would love to hear your thoughts.)

ninjashogun: The following is what I was thinking:

ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, I was very highly impressed by the way in which you funded your site, and I was interested in your thoughts on a funding model I am working on for the jobs website that I mentioned to you earlier. (Based on a back-end skills graph that knows that, for example, C# is close to C++ and Java, but very far from embedded electronics design.)

ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I find some of what you have said useful. I wouldn't adopt the tone of enlightening a stone-age man, as I have a lot of experience in several areas that also make my background interesting. we can simply have a conversation you know :)

ninjashogun: asciilifeform, okay look I get that it's kind of braindamaged. ATM cards are also inherently extremely braindamaged - and loads of people have been ripped off by card swipers, false things they put their card into that is in front of a real ATM.

ninjashogun: no I don't own one.

ninjashogun: asciilifeform, yes, I agree with you.

ninjashogun: I agree.

ninjashogun: asciilifeform, (I don't think this is a good use of the word "just"). But it answers your question regarding what is inside.

ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I don't like to say it but it's "just" a single-board module around a microcontroller that is a usb device

ninjashogun: asciilifeform, that tone isn't very conducive to development of anything. Not that I care.

ninjashogun: asciilifeform, because he could not patent it to protect his R&D research into it. It's a somewhat tough problem due to the very very fine sizes involved, and also the need to have a very low cost of goods if oyu are going to sell it as a plastic cafrd. There's no model that I can think of that would support this.

ninjashogun: asciilifeform, for example mircea_popescu could probably build a physical card that is a "lukewarm wallet" as you put it, he would have the funds, but I don't think he could get his R&D investment back - it would be money thrown away.

ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I just told you, none of it is patentable.

ninjashogun: mike_c - No, I don't have any interest in building a device like that. The only way it would be feasible for a single person who has not made a substantial exit in another company, is if it were strongly patentable. Idon't think it is.

ninjashogun: but a combination of both does wonders. I would say we hit on several key insights in this conversation - that are also actionable. It might be very hard to make a reality, but at least we know the market is there.

ninjashogun: moiety - I'll work on it :).

ninjashogun: this has been an interesting conversation. Yes, it's not easy to manufacture. I don't know how much those chips do when powered on but I doubt it's enough to do whatever a lukewarm wallet would need to.

ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I meant it (obviously) as a metaphor. Chip'n'pin works totally differently on a fundamnetal architectural level, from a card with a magnetic stripe.

ninjashogun: I think that's a very good idea, moiety, and if you targeted the chip'n'pin form factor (looks like a card) sold with a networked home reader, you could sell them as a plug-in solution to merchants. I'm not 100% sure how card processing works, but it may be possible to piggy-back on that system and let merchants use it as though it were card, meanwhile the back-end processor (your company?) or an intermediate networked de

ninjashogun: I mean if you took Trezor and made it look like an ATM card, by shrinking it down to the same chip size. (chip and pin)

ninjashogun: asciilifeform, ok. However I'm trying to approach this from the point of view of a user.

ninjashogun: ThickAsThieves, so, conceptually, it would have to be "Ooops, I was wrong." until it syncs.

ninjashogun: I just know that conceptually an offline wallet is probably hte easiest thing to understand.

ninjashogun: I don't know how an offline wallet will know its balance. For example, if it stays offline and the account receives a transfer for someone, how will it get updated?

ninjashogun: Oh....if in all the above you guys meant "you're not going to explain bitcoin Qua Investment to a newbie, and then get them to buy bitcoin" then that's probably true :). I wasn't thinking of it as an investment just then.

ninjashogun: I get that, sure.

ninjashogun: deadweasel - fair enough, but I was just addressing "ninjashogun, no one buys bitcoin to buy things" - though to be fair ThickAsThieves probably meant to say that as a generalization, which is true.

ninjashogun: ThickAsThieves, I mean I get what you're saying about investors/speculators - but it has actual users of it as currency as well.

ninjashogun: deadweasel, so if you were to say, "I bought $100 with my bicycle" it would - as you point out - sound like incoherent ramblings. It should be written, "I SOLD my bike for $100".

ninjashogun: deadweasel, sorry I wasn't clear enough. The difficulty with 'buying' a currency is that people don't think of 'buying' a dollar, or euro, or pound. It's a difficult concept for most people. People think of using currency, not buying it.

ninjashogun: deadweasel, it doesn't make much sense to say "I bought $100 with my used bike." It feels wrong. But it's accurate.

ninjashogun: deadweasel - I think i have some insight on this.