log☇︎
224200+ entries in 0.082s
asciilifeform: because it is in a bottle.
asciilifeform: in real time.
asciilifeform: a copy of my wotgraph kept around as a message in a bottle under nitrogen in my brother's house, say, will not really carry out its function as a live reflection of my wot-will.
asciilifeform: probably quite a few folks. but the thing that distinguishes fermat from wot is that wot needs to be at least quasi-'hot' to really work as intended, imho.
asciilifeform: dead tree counts
asciilifeform: let's ask - how many folks reading this have archived, e.g., the works of fermat ?
asciilifeform: can != will reliably
asciilifeform: if wot ratings were archived - it could.
asciilifeform: wot ??
asciilifeform: chat - sure
asciilifeform: someone manually copied it to a text file at some point ?
asciilifeform: by what mechanism are they kept around in the world ?
asciilifeform: consult it while forming own wot ratings, informally?
asciilifeform: and what can they do with this copy?
asciilifeform: which perhaps never, because atomic bomb fell on me.
asciilifeform: disappear until i get plugged back in
asciilifeform: i think it is ludicrous.
asciilifeform: the fact that my wot actions disappear when my node loses net
asciilifeform: wot, i'd say, falls somewhere between (or floating far in the state-space) from currency or mere words
asciilifeform: ('the same' topologically! not mechanically, clearly)
asciilifeform: hawala is more or less the same, but implemented in the informal, mouth-to-ear way contemplated above.
asciilifeform: think of the advantage bitcoin has over hawala.
asciilifeform: when part of mechanism, by spec and by reliable practice sans hand-holding
asciilifeform: we again arrive at a system of ad-hoc, bug-ridden relays and informal mirrors
asciilifeform: or would have to station it shore-side somehow
asciilifeform: under the contemplated scheme, i may as well not bother to use wot then
asciilifeform: and say my sub, a considerably poorer vessel, only has connection when on equator. say, one day in 60, in sight of particular satellite.
asciilifeform: not so much a concern re: fakes, but losses.
asciilifeform: why not cut straight to chase.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and then we get medieval-style rediscoveries of 'the latter gospel of mircea'
asciilifeform: 'those who will not' xxx 'are doomed to' yyy 'it'
asciilifeform: *greenspunism
asciilifeform: to borrow a greenspunish,
asciilifeform: that is an ad-hoc, bug-ridden reimplementation of the blockchain!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha!
asciilifeform: which in this one respect is an arguable improvement over the hypothetical apparatus
asciilifeform: but it stays around as a statue, for so long as nanotube remains ungassed
asciilifeform: because i am me and not him
asciilifeform: and i can't sign it with a fresh mircea-nonce.
asciilifeform: aye i have an old list. but that's quite ad-hoc.
asciilifeform: worse yet, if the boat were to perish in honourable combat, with all hands aboard, the global state of wot shall return to as if he and the crew had never lived ?
asciilifeform: barque << haha yes, knew this
asciilifeform: during these five days, how many sc4mz0rs will find themselves temporarily rehabilitated ?
asciilifeform: a martian death ray takes out a satellite. the ship is now within five day's steam of the next chance for net connection
asciilifeform: let's imagine the good ship Mircea, a four-reactored former soviet nuke sub;
asciilifeform: well then:
asciilifeform: rather than permanent blockchain-style world record
asciilifeform: in mircea_popescu's scheme, my wot-graph exists as a bitstring that my particular node will disgorge if asked?
asciilifeform: let's see if i misunderstood something.
asciilifeform: and to pet neglected pet
asciilifeform marches off to thinking room to properly think about this.
asciilifeform: hm?
asciilifeform: (wot operations still need to be signed, as well as 'hello' session negotiations.)
asciilifeform: instead of one
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: complicates your design a bit, as now you have two classes of message
asciilifeform: still need signed hellos
asciilifeform: highly recommended to anyone who took part in or enjoyed reading this thread.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'gossipd' << see 'gossip protocols', very interesting subfield in maths.
asciilifeform: l0l
asciilifeform probably caught in spam/ddos trap
asciilifeform also cannot connect now
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: http://www.slate.com/blogs/business_insider/2015/01/05/russian_hedge_fund_founder_disappears_with_all_the_firm_s_money.html?wpisrc=obnetwork << another mega-lol from same site
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-11-2014#917896 ☝︎
asciilifeform: it isn't a scalar.
asciilifeform: the notion of 'trustworthiness' as a scalar is fundamental to scamatrons of all stripes. ☟︎
asciilifeform: (*even before)
asciilifeform: before i learned of the wot that we now use.
asciilifeform: !s kyristor
asciilifeform: i've been wishing that folks would let go of it for quite some time.
asciilifeform: only if it, as it does presently, lives in just one specially-designated temple
asciilifeform: i doubt that this can be avoided entirely
asciilifeform: inescapably one will end up seeing slightly different WoTs, at least on their peripheries, at different times.
asciilifeform: hence atomic operation, aha
asciilifeform: now answer under what circumstances one can accept a loss of even one packet of WoT computation.
asciilifeform: well yes.
asciilifeform: through the ravages of time
asciilifeform: except in degenerate case, where modem and owner both crumble to dust before the transmission can finish
asciilifeform: even when they are.
asciilifeform: the 300 baud modem loses no usenet messages.
asciilifeform: 'store and forward'
asciilifeform: perhaps root of disagreement is that i originally contemplated something more along the lines of a very fast usenet, rather than potentially slow chat.
asciilifeform: this apparatus of yours is not merely ircd with new coat of paint. it is a very different animal mathematically, as you lot will soon realize.
asciilifeform: if i'm on a satellite modem, i doubt that one in ten messages of 5-second window will make it through to my node.
asciilifeform: the distinction between 'log' and 'allow very high-latency chat' is very thin.
asciilifeform: and synchronize based on histories of individual pubkeys
asciilifeform: why not allow a node to store as much history as he wishes to expend on disk
asciilifeform: a window of 5 seconds will give quite a few dropped messages.
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: same here
asciilifeform: just rolling window.
asciilifeform: notice you don't have to store the chain permanently
asciilifeform: if no chain: malicious node can selectively drop messages.
asciilifeform: no blockchain. just chain.
asciilifeform: how is it a problem ?
asciilifeform: like bitcoin.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: your site is down as seen from my perch
asciilifeform: there is no reason to bring 'net splits' into existence again.
asciilifeform: so it may as well apply to everything.
asciilifeform: thing is, you need a hard-reliable mechanism regardless of what you do, if only on account of having the WoT in this thing.
asciilifeform: if you take the bundle approach, you are suddenly faced with a multitude of very arbitrary decisions re: what ought to be included in bundle.
asciilifeform: hash-chain or some variation on that theme is the only way an operator can be certain of possessing an unbroken chain of what a particular key has uttered.