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mircea_popescu: (incidentally, for the midden diggers : that "club kids" crew actually invented the pantsuit. yes it's true hilary stwart wore it on tv before going to jail, so it became popular with her fat old white women crowd. but before she could wear it, someone had to make it -- and they did. "here, this is the unitard. This and a hat was basically the whole thing. You can get different hats and I guess paint your face to look differe

BingoBoingo: I'd take banksy a lot more seriously if he caught the bad side of the feds, won on appeal, touched the republic, then decided he could stack his own chairs just fine as he proceeded on his moon mission ☟︎

mircea_popescu: it's true nobody but ny outfits with ~0 readership or influence a la http://trilema.com/2017/party-monster/ ever mention it. but it seemed to me more the case of "look at st james' desperation to pretend like he's hanging on" than any sort of active pushing.

mod6: maybe i just caught a bad run from ya

BingoBoingo: As best as I can tell banksy does this vague anti-capitalist, anti-fascist schtick to much pantsuitist adoration while a substantial number of nytimes-ish media folk seem to be in on the seekrit

BingoBoingo: And one thing that clicks off and on with me is how very much Qntra as a herald and wire service is very much not a blog

mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo fwiw i believe bansky makes a way the fuck better example than weev.

BingoBoingo: With some low stakes matters like the cannabis piece I trust myself to do the rewriting, hence the long turn around time. For a piece on Republican doctrine, the republic's gotta weigh in on a draft

mod6: Also, I finally ate the whole block chain again with my node; it's currently syncing the final ~2000 blocks. Should be back up and running fully in the next day or two. Yes, totally got a full back just in case.

mircea_popescu: start with a theoretical idea of blog, resign to how it practically works.

mircea_popescu: hey, forum forces changes in people ; i used to do multiple articles/day (even have days with 12+!) ; nowadays do maaaybe two a week. it's what it is.

BingoBoingo: Anyways, with the blog business I have resigned myself to the medium's resistance to my filling it. Treating the blog as a notebook that I happen to let others read (A habit I have been suggesting Latinas mulling the blog hobby adopt) I accept there is no shame in rewriting.

mircea_popescu: so i'd say needs a rewrite.

mircea_popescu: but the main issue is that this reads like an approximately sorted succession of conclusions. painfully absent a) the logical justification for the various sentences and b) a very clear indication of structure, how they all work together ; from this b there would then flow a much better a.

mircea_popescu: also, dubious expressions, a collection : "to understand that why they want" ; "if your words actual words are avaible" ; "manufacter a pretext" ; "lack anyway to know" ; "the manufactered insecurity" ; "maladapted in ways invite bullying."

asciilifeform: likewise, e.g., entire w(1) term will disappear if you have (XOR B E G (RL11 (XOR A D F H #9e3779b9 0)) == #9e3779b9 ( the 1 dun du nuffin, as 9 is odd)

asciilifeform: if you have d,f,h, such that a == d xor f xor h ( or if you like , a xor d == f xor h , or a xor d xor f == h , it's transitive) then a term disappears from the eqn ☟︎

asciilifeform: cleaning up the above : a, b, c, appear directly 1ce; the rest --only as recurrence terms.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'm baking a proggy that shits out sister keys, if it still dun make sense, you can wait till its birthed and try yourself.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: errywhere else, it appears strictly as a copy of w(0)

asciilifeform: diana_coman: look at the recurrence, term a appears directly only once, in w(0)

a111: Logged on 2018-10-29 16:18 asciilifeform: so! for instance ! if a, d, f, h are such that xor(a,d,f,h) = 0, then term a no longer appears in the equation at all !

diana_coman: basically I get http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-29#1867091 BUT can't yet follow it to http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-29#1867092 mainly because it seems to me that the effect of A is basically in fixing d,f,h (so that xor(a,d,f,h)=0); in short: wouldn't a change (of any number of bits) in a trigger (if imposing xor(a,d,f,h)=0 still) changes further in b-h so that the resulting key schedule is different? theoretically that would be the ration ☝︎☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2018-10-29 16:52 asciilifeform: a proggy that takes a 256b key and shits out its 4+ sister-keys, prolly wouldnt hurt, either; if somebody can be arsed to write.

mircea_popescu: on the other hand, entirely unclear to me why the fuck we're discussing some [evidently buggy/misimplemented] program or my own inept handcalculus. either we agree a system of n equations with n unknowns is determinate or we don't and that's the end of the matter.

mircea_popescu: if we manage to fixate on a specific datapoint we'd prolly benefit here.

asciilifeform: you're xoring Kbits distinct (if lowest kbit is 0, and there are no symmetries in the message) strings into a Kbits-sized hole.

mircea_popescu: there's a reason i say " Consider K = 01010"

a111: Logged on 2018-10-29 06:45 Mocky: or a more direct counter argument: A xor A = 0

asciilifeform: knowing the key and the ciphertext tells you almost nuffin about the plaintext, cuz it's a write-only-memory, lol

mircea_popescu: for a 5 bit key you only have to try 2^3 permutations or so, it's true. but anyways.

mircea_popescu: so : with K it's a system of 5 equations with 5 unknowns ; without K it's a system of 5 equations with 10 unknowns.

asciilifeform: the basic boojum is that it aint a cipher of any kind, and the ubiquitous sbox derpery is simply squid ink to obscure this. maslennikov details how he pointed this out to 1980s kgb and got sacked. ☟︎

mircea_popescu: as long as P doesn't have more bits than K, this is a determinate system.

mircea_popescu: so this is, in fact, a system of (here) 512 xor-equations, with ak nown result (e[x]) and a known parameter matrix (K)

mircea_popescu: E[i] = K[0]*P[a] x K[1] * P[b] x ...

mircea_popescu: P[n] = K[0]*P[a] x K[1] * P[b] x ...

mircea_popescu: (provided of course k>=n, which yes, it's a block cipher)

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform check this out : as per the "chipher", let there be a plaintext P of n bits ; and a key K of k bits. given a ciphertext E of n bits, it is a fact that any one bit of P is the result of xoring of up to k bits of P. if you know K you know ~which ones~, and as you have E you know ~what they must xor to~. this results in a message-wide system of k equations which is determinate.

a111: Logged on 2018-10-29 19:22 diana_coman: asciilifeform, that helps, thank you! I had to take break and I'm slow on this sort of things so it'll take a while until I get to say anything

asciilifeform: nao y'know wai asciilifeform dun have a tv..

mircea_popescu: this has been a very fun morning.

mircea_popescu: "our block cipher has to have backdoor because we built a paper shredder and well..."

asciilifeform: it's a crosscut-shredder, not a ciphrator..

diana_coman: asciilifeform, that helps, thank you! I had to take break and I'm slow on this sort of things so it'll take a while until I get to say anything ☟︎

mircea_popescu: and no, "we have pre-padded ring buffers with THIS particular message that's worth hardwiring because it's ever so magical" ain't a reasoning.

mircea_popescu: rotates, it's a ring buffer.

deedbot: http://trilema.com/2018/so-i-designed-a-block-chipher/ << Trilema - So I designed a block chipher.

asciilifeform: i deciphered these with perl script, for a living, for yrs.

mircea_popescu: ow shit, i mystypoed in the title, wtf is a "chipher".

asciilifeform: haha, after a fashion.

asciilifeform: lol you almost got me, i half-expected the piece to be about a block cipher

mircea_popescu: i'd have said more, but the editor showed wordcount 777, and i deem this a very good omen re cipher quality.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2018/so-i-designed-a-block-chipher/

diana_coman: I can cite though from the 2000 paper (or apparently 2000...): "Since then we have sought to strengthen the algorithm and improve its performance. As a result, we have selected new, stornger, S-boxes and changed the key schedule slightly."

asciilifeform: hilariously, i have a tall pile of academiliquishit re serpent right here on desk, and it ALL without exception dwells on the sboxes & lineartransform, 0 discussion of key schedule.

asciilifeform: i do suggest to look for a spare tyre, tho, this one's hissing air.

mircea_popescu: bright kid walks in with a convincing story as to how he's gonna walk in with item != bright kid walks into here one day with that item.

a111: Logged on 2018-10-26 17:05 mircea_popescu: yeah but suppose some bright kid walks into here one day with that item we all suspect is under a rock somewhere

a111: Logged on 2018-10-26 17:04 mircea_popescu: in short, because this winding discussion risks overwhelming buffers, the salient points are a) that i'm not ready to go to war over serpent, it's a meh-maybe item ; b) that building our spearheads around items we're not willing to die for may be how the converse of http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=bitcoin+corrupts altogether.

asciilifeform: a proggy that takes a 256b key and shits out its 4+ sister-keys, prolly wouldnt hurt, either; if somebody can be arsed to write. ☟︎

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: mebbe give it a week, whoknows, somebody turns up a mistake in asciilifeform's maffs. then can qntra...

asciilifeform: i suspect that the thing was a mine planted specifically, if you will, for tmsr.

asciilifeform: relatedly, for shits & giggles asciilifeform has been reading a 'digital evidence' law school textbook, for entomological/ameritardological studies, and it goes out of its way to mention 'serpent sank an fbi case'

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform consider also that if a, b, c, d, e, f are rng words, then (P xor a) xor b) etc does not in fact substract anything.

asciilifeform: it also suggests a very different picture, vs the one i previously supposed, re why it didn't win the tourney. ( rather than washington:'omfg too strong', rather went 'omfg our academi.flunkies kissing arse so hard they cant breathe' )

a111: Logged on 2018-10-29 16:06 asciilifeform: nao, is it a controversial statement that xors with an item that's already been rolled in, can only ~subtract~ entropy, never add ?

asciilifeform: alphabet-a -> alphabet-b.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what would mean 'equiprobable' ? they're a 1:1 mapping

a111: Logged on 2018-10-29 15:53 mircea_popescu: it is entropy* conserving, where entropy* is a special "entropy-colored-for-meaning", but this isn't useful.

mircea_popescu: because if not, then VERY likely what we're seeing is a subclass of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-29#1867048 ☝︎

asciilifeform: so! for instance ! if a, d, f, h are such that xor(a,d,f,h) = 0, then term a no longer appears in the equation at all ! ☟︎

asciilifeform: nao, is it a controversial statement that xors with an item that's already been rolled in, can only ~subtract~ entropy, never add ? ☟︎

asciilifeform: ),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))))),RLeft11(xor(e,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))),RLeft11(xor(d,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))))))))))))))))) , and we can ignore these

asciilifeform: )))))),RLeft11(xor(h,RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))))),RLeft11(xor(e,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))),RLeft11(xor(d,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))))))))),RLeft11(xor(g,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))),RLeft11(xor(d,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))))))),RLeft11(xor(f,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)

asciilifeform: but after this, it chews the cud, e.g. W(8) = RLeft11(xor(RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(d,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))))))),RLeft11(xor(f,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))))),RLeft11(xor(e,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))),RLeft11(xor(d,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h))))))

asciilifeform: W(7) = RLeft11(xor(h,RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))))),RLeft11(xor(e,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))),RLeft11(xor(d,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))))))))),RLeft11(xor(g,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))),RLeft11(xor(d,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))))))),RLeft11(xor(f,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)

asciilifeform: W(6) = RLeft11(xor(g,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))),RLeft11(xor(d,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))))))),RLeft11(xor(f,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))))),RLeft11(xor(e,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))),RLeft11(xor(d,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h))))))))))))))

asciilifeform: W(5) = RLeft11(xor(f,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))))),RLeft11(xor(e,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))),RLeft11(xor(d,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h))))))))))))

asciilifeform: W(4) = RLeft11(xor(e,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)))),RLeft11(xor(d,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h))))))))))

asciilifeform: W(3) = RLeft11(xor(d,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h))))))))

asciilifeform: W(3) = 3,RLeft11(xor(d,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h)),RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h))))))))

asciilifeform: W(2) = RLeft11(xor(c,f,h,RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h))))))

asciilifeform: W(1) = RLeft11(xor(b,e,g,RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h))))

asciilifeform: W(0) = RLeft11(xor(a,d,f,h))

mircea_popescu: it's what i do for a living.

asciilifeform: by this token there exists inverse keccak, consisting of a list of values which when xor'd with any given one, produces original.

asciilifeform: then it aint reversible if it can't turn the 5 back into a 4

asciilifeform: ( not even speaking of fact that this aint a function of the inputs, in the civilized sense, it is a function of input and rng )

asciilifeform: let's try this. so i throw in {1,2,3,4,5} and the rng cranks and i get a {1,2,3,5,5}, then i put it back and rng cranks again and i get a {1,2,3,4,4}, with nonzero probability. so i reversed ??

mircea_popescu: it is entropy* conserving, where entropy* is a special "entropy-colored-for-meaning", but this isn't useful. ☟︎

mircea_popescu: a fuck i did it backlwards

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if it has a random component, it aint reversible, how wouldja reverse it ? with time machine ?

asciilifeform: let the key words (32bit ea.) be A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H. so W(-8)=A, W(-7)=B, W(-6)=C, W(-5)=D, W(-4)=E, W(-3)=F, W(-2)=G, W(-1)=H ;

asciilifeform: ( for anybody who wants to take a stab at this in parallel with asciilifeform , hint : xor-with-constant is injective , can be factored out of equation; ditto sboxes )

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not only were you right, but i just about have a handle on deriving the factual key bitness of serpent..

a111: Logged on 2018-10-29 03:26 asciilifeform: nao, exercise for the reader : find the bandwidth of this channel ( how many bits , if more than one, can be stuffed into a block and still preserve this property ) ...

Mocky: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-29#1866992 >> using a variation this algo you can stuff a block half full of bits without any 2 consecutive bits being from a known plaintext, while the accumulating xor prevents the penguin ☝︎

Mocky: or a more direct counter argument: A xor A = 0 ☟︎