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asciilifeform: re 'why the fuck bot doesn't see own output' -- mircea_popescu had a piece re the idjicy of 'nat' , where same, q of 'what is my ip' becomes suddenly irresolvable w/out external help. i suspect in both cases 'sleep of reason breeds monsters', no one even considered to fucking think.
asciilifeform: ( lamport did not offer a 'wat-do if N parties can't agree on 'prev line'', if he had thought about this, bitcoin would have existed, at least as algo, in 1990... )
asciilifeform: e.g. bitcoin -- seen through this lens -- is simply a generalization of lamport's sync .
asciilifeform: ( incidentally -- as gedankenexperiment -- even 1980s irc ~could~ have been built so as to force a sync. simply force erry issued line to carry a checksum of the prev. seen. and if wrong -- you get eggog back, and asked to resend. but no one was even giving a nanoshit about 'agree on order' etc, quite obviously )
asciilifeform: possib. 'product' of the other half of same bottle of whiskey as email.
asciilifeform: irc per se as i understand is a 'dark ages' creation, before ~anyone stopped to even try to think about ~anything
mircea_popescu: then you stop and think who "they" are.
mircea_popescu: such wunderbar winful scheme, it's a fucking wonder they didn't come up with it / use it
mircea_popescu: so yeah. weird baked in. (gossipd, obviously, will not have the problem, everyone'll hear "here's what you allededly said" from multiple sources)
mircea_popescu: we ~could~ have a rule asking bots to log themselves as they receive the echo rather than as they send the line ; but that'd only work in a sane world where it echos, afaik irc does not
asciilifeform: i already despaired in re the very idea of 'synced time' ; but this is in re absolute ordering.
mircea_popescu: alright, but that's different, specifically in that there's no god-given time
asciilifeform: re 'the beast' -- already unleashed is the beast of variant line ordering (bots will log their own output prior to any other's, per the current scheme, and it is not obvious what -- if anything -- could or even should be done about this )
asciilifeform: maybe -- not. but as i understand if the above can be had, than so -- later -- could this.
mircea_popescu: but i dunno that it extends as far as an expectation of functional retrospective backlink decorations
asciilifeform: imho the bare essential function is when the urls can be made interchangeable such that if 1 fails, can swap in /etc/hosts and carry on civilized conversation until it is fixed; errything other than this, is luxury.
asciilifeform: ( this ~is~ afaik 1st time that anyone attempted orchestra of synchronized bots )
asciilifeform: so as to find what is even practical to consider .
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm trying to draw an exact map of this 'cthulhu beast' .
asciilifeform: let's suppose not even want this. still imho oughta maintain sync, where #1234 goes to same thing in ea. machine. otherwise the loggers are not in fact plug-in redundant backups for 1 another .
mircea_popescu: yes, but i never contemplated this ctulhu beast of it.
asciilifeform: only if you actually want backlinkage resembling phf's ( iirc mircea_popescu put it in spec, and even griped that it aint in yet , not long ago )
mircea_popescu: so this is a reason to introduce it as standard practice for live links ?!
asciilifeform: ( kako's , that is, phf's -- for nao -- alive 0
mircea_popescu: i dunno i'm so crazy about redirecting the links, either.
asciilifeform: as in e.g. phf's, where kako links display as originally witnessed, but if clicked to to phf's log.
asciilifeform: imho line rewriting is Wrong Thing entirely. errybody oughta have identical (to extent possible) db. q was re ~display~ in www , i.e. where the links point.
asciilifeform: so that knob (not implemented yet) becomes just about worthless even in principle. but this is only tip of iceberg -- if the db's diverge arbitrarily, how wouldja go about syncing gaps, other than by hand.
asciilifeform: yes, in that when errybody has own logger, and uses it to echo, nobody will have anyffin resembling a complete index of backlinks
mircea_popescu: you see a problem with this /
mircea_popescu: yes. so what, they work if same logger is used.
asciilifeform: the arrows that point to downstream (and correspondingly, upstream) refs
a111: Logged on 2015-03-06 03:29 mircea_popescu: if you are one of the people buying belgian rubber concessions on the stock exchanges, you make money. if you're in africa, you make quick with the hands and feet.
mircea_popescu: if i use logger a it is because i use logger a ; i wouldn't appreciate seeing my lines edited to use logger b, and especially not by logger b.
mircea_popescu: why woukld he do that /
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if had ...logger-a/log/trilema/.../#12345... and ...logger-b/log/trilema/.../#12345... go to same place, then their www can reliably point all links to self ( for e.g. backlinkage , when implemented) otherwise not
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-01 16:52:52 asciilifeform: ( in re urls tho -- if we had a reliable sync, would be quite painless to have each logger re-point log links to self )
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-01#1933045 << what is this ?
trinque: soft suggestion, write this on a personal blog.
asciilifeform: the way, is said, people go in the desert
asciilifeform: imho mircea_popescu was right about this, gotta write it or otherwise will go in circles 4evah
mod6: (Mainly follows what I talked about in the logs a couple of days ago.)
asciilifeform: ( in re urls tho -- if we had a reliable sync, would be quite painless to have each logger re-point log links to self )
diana_coman: asciilifeform: yep, as I said to start with, lol.
asciilifeform: ooh hm i think i get it
asciilifeform: hm so for which was it ? why did the dump need to be sed'd ?
diana_coman: and I don't see any need to change the urls anyway
diana_coman: yes; but not for changing urls (anyway it doesn't help with that, or I don't see how since url uses nosuchlabs /ossasepia, no?)
asciilifeform: hm i was thinking diana_coman actually ran 'sed' on the db dump
asciilifeform: diana_coman if you want snsabot url's to point to your www, imho the correct method, is this, rather than to actually alter db
asciilifeform: currently era 1 has not been eaten, it is pending a pill for the clock diff grrr
asciilifeform: is why i divided time into 'era'
asciilifeform: 'era 1' , when finally eaten, will be 'dekakoized' via phf's algo, i.e. <a href="...foo...">bar</a> only 'foo' will be transfomed, when foo corresponds to a kakotron url
asciilifeform fwiw has not yet manually fiddled the db in any way -- i.e. phf's imports are as they were found. the 1 'hand' fix was when dropped the botched eat of #e and reran w/ lobbes's corrected eater.py . but all url's are as-they-were atm.
diana_coman: asciilifeform: me being silly really; your dump has nsabot user, my db has ossabot so I did stupidly a blind replace, didn't think of the name in the log
asciilifeform: what was the issue there ?
diana_coman: I just need to think a bit re how to fix it without creating more trouble
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'ma manually set off my dump, if this helps ( can grab it in 10s or so)
diana_coman: nm, it's in my db, will have to fix
diana_coman: I know what the trouble is there
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-08 21:16:41 lobbes: http://trilema.com/2019/trilema-goes-dark/#comment-130823 << Seeing as the order was given to strike scriba from the list, I have also removed it from the TMSR bot directory (which means the command prefix "!$" is available again): http://lobbesblog.com/static/tmsr_bot_directory.html
ossabot: Logged on 2019-08-09 03:23:23 mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926527 << also jhvh1 and a111 please. and i guess candilust & tb0t eventually, though not yet. oh and "ossabot" is actually "sossabot" for some reason, i guess let's stick to it.
diana_coman: I mean, your *bot* that got renamed weirdly as ossabot?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-01 15:53:56 ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-01 03:44:26 lobbes: what took me the longest was the damn reverse proxy stuff (never done that before). Turns out it was simple enough though; will post a guide from notes once this is confirmed running smoothly
asciilifeform: seems like this happened from the colouration fix : http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-01#1932965
diana_coman: asciilifeform: uhm, nick is fine in conf, that's weird.
asciilifeform: ossabot: check your nick = .... in the conf
asciilifeform: diana_coman: take a look in your config... suddenly your box shows as 'sossabot' ??
asciilifeform: ( physically -- they're about half the volume of box of cigar. )
asciilifeform: imho that thing oughta be standard item in pc. gives clean, stable fundamental freq from which can run pll, incl. the 1 for cpu clock, in principle.
asciilifeform: ( the lamp is apparently good for 10-20 yrs, in these )
asciilifeform: re that thrd, asciilifeform prolly will succumb to temptation to buy rubidium clock ( they're apparently laffably cheap, 100-200 bux or so, massive pile of surplus from gsm towers ) but this aint a solution as such, i aint about to ask ~erryone~ to buy one and build the 10mhz-to-pc-clock box for same. asciilifeform is simply tired of his own clocks drifting all over.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: mircea_popescu said 'go think', so i went, to think. still haven't a pill tho.
diana_coman: asciilifeform: I agree re trouble but sadly I don't have any idea how to solve it
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-28 21:09:04 trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-27#1931384 << what's the url you want to have? possibly doable as apache-level URL rewrite
asciilifeform: diana_coman: thread re the latter
asciilifeform: not to mention the horror with the dates ( it is not difficult to find lines that e.g. snsabot will quote correctly, but ossabot not, and in reverse, on acct of clock diff )
asciilifeform: ( for that matter, asciilifeform still not attempted to correct divergence vs. phf's bot, which came from the uniturds crapola 3w ago )
asciilifeform: ( not to mention, impedes an imho important function of having multiple bots, i.e. where can substitute links if 1 fails )
asciilifeform: the divergence thing is gonna back backlinkage implementation very painful
asciilifeform: ( it would have been 'nsabot', too, but someone apparently is squatting that nick )
asciilifeform: i suspected this
diana_coman: meanwhile I found out while it failed to colour snsabot properly: I called it nsabot ofc; drat
asciilifeform: nao if could think of how to cleanly fix these... to make the bot echoes actually interchangeable, as they oughta be
diana_coman: but it does mean that indices won't be in sync, pretty much, huh
diana_coman: thank you for the hunt !
asciilifeform manually walked the log-raw/ dumps, found
asciilifeform: divergence happened at birth of ossabot , the 1st time it was asked to speak
asciilifeform: recall that bots are 'deaf' to own output, so there is no, afaik, pill against this
asciilifeform: this accts for the extra lines.
diana_coman: well, syncing indices is gotta be automated not manual hunting though
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-01 03:28:55 lobbes: what took me the longest was the damn reverse proxy stuff (never done that before). Turns out it was simple enough though; will post a guide from notes once this is confirmed running smoothly
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-01 03:44:26 lobbes: what took me the longest was the damn reverse proxy stuff (never done that before). Turns out it was simple enough though; will post a guide from notes once this is confirmed running smoothly
diana_coman: asciilifeform: hm, the indices though seem out of sync earlier
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-01 04:42:31 diana_coman: at least it scrapes through into top-500 though, lol.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-01 04:55:56 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-08-31#1932770 - mine is the first in the list there (103.36.92.112) but it doesn't seem to make it to top-1k providers of blocks; no idea why though, as far as I can tell it's been chugging along nicely all this time.
asciilifeform: or nm, that wouldn't explain ( thought, at first 'it sees own output, naturally, 1st' but that wouldn't explain wai above diverges )
mircea_popescu: aaand her super great large format pics put my blog to shame, as seen on this curved meterwide display right here. damn.
ossabot: asciilifeform: time since my last reconnect : 2d 2h 13m
diana_coman: asciilifeform: hm, I thought I had added it, will have to check.