log☇︎
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mircea_popescu: s 60% the length ; but this is not the be-all end all of intellectual accessibility.
mircea_popescu: a car-plane is not more compact than a set of car, plane ; nor is it "more intellectually accessible". it's true the manual
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938084 << imo this sounds like a good idea in theory, but is not a good idea in practice. the reason for the difference is that the links as we use them now are ~fixed length~ AND ~fixed format~, something the quotes can never be. they are BETTEr like this than like that because the fix-* is the more important attirbute in thsi context.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 22:43:04 asciilifeform: incidentally, if yer going full throttle w/ selectables , the Right Thing imho would be to take it all the way and make items like this actually display (if reasonably compact.. config knob?) the linked text. a la old man ted nelson's 'transclusions' concept .
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938080 << there's no good way to "knob" this.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 22:38:25 asciilifeform: the other thing, the adhoc traditional line select is human-friendly, very fast to grab a line url, whereas mircea_popescu-style selector less so, gotta find unique start/end text, when citing from trilema it usually takes asciilifeform 2-3 shots to nail down the correct snip
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938078 << now this is so ; i'm quite happy we found out about it actually.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 22:34:53 billymg: just found it now and read it over, did not know mp-wp trackbacks were broken in this way
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938075 << right, that one.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 22:29:07 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938050 << if you dun actually store the raw irc lines somewhere, sync ~from~ your logger becomes suddenly quite nontrivial.
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938067 << so the idea is that the flatfile is part of the orig logger ? i misread, i thought it's novel addition.
mircea_popescu: until html replacement, this is the limit
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 22:26:36 asciilifeform: in related grrs, asciilifeform recently attempted backport of mircea_popescu's selector knob to own wp, but broke teeth cuz it dun know how to cross paragraphs, and i have '9000' multi-para selections, esp. in ffa series where coad
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938065 << sadly this is a html breakage. the options are delineated in article : either use span and not cross paras, or else use div and end up with an extra newline.
mircea_popescu: alternative schemes may be devised, but it's not a simple "let's just mechasmush everythin together" sorta level of consideration.
mircea_popescu: which is why generally when rendering log i tend to preserve nametags per line and the original lines (though not always) and instead insert extra line breaks now and again to paragraph it up.
mircea_popescu: unlike "poetry" ie the socialist shit, where "things look a certain way" with 'verses" (and i'm stuck ha;lf the time dropping it altogether, because it's better absent than fucked), our prosody is actually interesting.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 22:23:37 asciilifeform: ( and: if yer not indexing by line , why not actually merge the text when speaker is contiguous ? )
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938061 << this is a long standing problem (not kidding, i been pondering "how to display logs" for a LONG time). generally it seems to me preferable to preserve the original prosody of the author (because yes, this is what this is, "how to break into lines", duh, ancient greek issue)
diana_coman: spyked: indeed it does; basically the browser-display is the broken part
spyked: diana_coman, from what I can see, raw-log display also fixes the "when to cross page boundary" problem, heh. e.g. http://logs.ossasepia.com/log-raw/trilema?istart=1938114&iend=1938120 displays fine
mircea_popescu: will need moar beard for crossing the 500 line threshold.
mircea_popescu: not this decade
diana_coman: (and them mircea_popescu will write a mandatory-reading thread of more than 500 lines and my log-selection via log-raw will fail).
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log-raw/trilema?istart=1938185&iend=1938213 - look at this, log-selection via log-raw, ha.
diana_coman: this thread will be mandatory reading for #o residents
mircea_popescu: no, tis outta respect. i will take the time to type something out, an old poem, whatever, for similar reasons : some things are worth it. and they get worth it through occasionally, ever so occasionally, doing you that rare and radiant wonder of a favour, where "it turns out" aka you finally deign to fucking notice you were doing something stupid.
mircea_popescu: se, so i have 500 gallon jugs with time lying about.
mircea_popescu: in fact, the reason i take the time to explain how various shits work, unpopular as they may be, is because i put the time in to actually understand how they do in fact work ; and i did that not because i was bored, or because i was desperate to find something to pour some of this time into, i have like a well of time at home and it's overflowing so you gotta put some in all availavble receptacles or else it floods the hou
mircea_popescu: ~the dichotomy is creative~. we don't have many (in the sense of : not any) alternative leverage points available. gotta use what's there.
mircea_popescu: yet strangely mp doesn't mind nearly as much as the bottom centile of the "red pill" crowd. how the fuck ?! is it because he's a jew that he doesn't suspect jews are in charge ? what the fuck's going on here ?!
mircea_popescu: yet mp is also the ~least~ angry at "the system". how the fuck could this be ? is mp insane ? if everyone's so fucking pissed off over epsilon, "they gave us 9000 things but we're missing like... three. burn it all down", what the fuck's mp supposed to say, he has to have his fucking food flown in / slave made, and clothes flown in across the world and everything else.
mircea_popescu: erryone's happy with a girl to worship at home, just put her into this one shrineroom and worship there now and again ; mp apparently needs multiple (what! how!) and ~somehow even manages this~, for years, decades, it's not a wish-perceived fantasy, he lives like this ?!
mircea_popescu: how it all relates to the system.
mircea_popescu: and it can not even be explained JUST HOW!!! creative that thing that's creative actually is. let's look at one example : mp is, as a factual matter, the one who needs most things not put in. mp apparently needs to walk his bitches on a leash downtown, which romania doesn't even have words for, every newspaper in the country must drop whatever it was doing, selling cheap chinesiums, to talk about mp's weird needs now, and
mircea_popescu: it could be, of fucking course, there's no denying that. but there's another step in there, and not to be skipped over.
mircea_popescu: in fact, all it really takes is this conviction that a problem once perceived's thereby an' therefore also a problem that needs solving. NOT SO.
mircea_popescu: and participation ~doesn't take all that much~. that's why it exists, after all, because it's easy, because it is in fact even easier than the very little use them powerful old men behaving badly might put a dumb wench towards.
mircea_popescu: the subjective paralysis is actually the problem. participating in the tavern wench chorus as to how bad your owner is prevents you from fucking thinking, or growing the fuck up (the two being related).
mircea_popescu: this isn't actually the problem though ; as well documented on trilema, the effect on powerful old men an' their behaviour of the tavern wench consensus is still the nil it's ever been.
mircea_popescu: if one just goes by the persuasion tradewinds, this lever's permanently stuck to position one ; and ridiculous nonsense flows downstream, superficially visible as "old men in power have been behaving badly" or w/e currently fashionable cri de guerre of the retard camp.
mircea_popescu: the dichotomy between the subjective life of the subject and the demands of the outside structure ~is creative~. this is specifically the mechanism through which it is creative : "i wonder why it is i want something that these idiots didn't put in". one possible outcome of a correct such evaluation is, indeed, "jesus fuck they're idiots". however, ANOTHER possible outcome is the ~EXTREMELY~ valuble bootstrap out of d-k rec
mircea_popescu: the persuasive universe is actually very much like a fungal infection of the mind : it grows nicely, i'm sure, but in so doing it misuses a fundamental other thing, that actually has a function independent of ever-growing fungal blather.
mircea_popescu: "i thought this was uncontroversial" "yes, that's how it usually goes."
mircea_popescu: w far that gets you and bother whoever cares about it.
mircea_popescu: there's exactly no need to "stop rape", for instance. "being special" (defined as, "never being raped") is not some kind of "universal right of womanhood". no woman's born entitled to be special, she's born to be used, like any other blade of grass on this here GREEN earth. that specialdom may arise, as a mist, RETROSPECTIVELY, is one thing. but the problem needs no "solving" -- you don't wanna take the cock, don't. see ho
mircea_popescu: the only available support for such bootstrap is this kind of indicia, "why are my self-perceived needs conflict with my betters' designs". it could, surely, be the case they're fucked in the head. i'm sure they often are.
mircea_popescu: god put ~exactly no clues~ permitting one to bootstrap out of the ~necessary~ d-k recursion. god put no such clues in ~deliberately~, and god also made it necessary in the first place. because god's an asshole.
mircea_popescu: maybe what you're trying to select isn't something you should be selecting as part of what you're trying to do because what you;re trying to do is actually broken upstream. ODDS ARE.
mircea_popescu: ie, if "selection doesn't work for me" "why not ?" "because what i want to select recurs", give some thought whether indeed "selection is broken and should be fixed". WHY do you want to select something THAT RECURS, and recurs so much it actually doesn't allow you to extend the context slightly, one character at a time, resolving your problem ?
mircea_popescu: you can't need to point specifically to my name generally.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 22:22:24 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938053 << ideally would pipe it into sumthing like a table layout, so can select w/out repeatedly including speaker indicator per line e.g. 'mircea_popescu:'
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938058 << this is an insane problem to solve. if all you're trying to delineate is "mircea popescu", then how about linking to the whole page ; otherwise, it was ~something the man said~, which gives rise to both the need to point to it specifically, and to the method of doing just that.
mircea_popescu: this has easily been the weirdest wtf... uncleaned coffee mugs invaded by ergot or what the hell's going on here
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 20:37:34 asciilifeform: imho a logger that can't resync at all, aint much of a logger. but at the same time i dun see why a generate-statics logger couldn't be made to resync. simply a bit moar complicated.
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938046 << are you fucking kidding me, how the fuck are old logs not read-only even anyway ?!
mircea_popescu: and why the fuck flatfile intermediary anywya, what is this, medieval clockwork ?! what's it needed for ?!
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 20:21:24 lobbes: indeed. Would just be a buncha "update" statements that fill in the proper lines. As it currently is designed, I have it spitting lines into a flat file first, and that file is used to update the "current day's log" post as new lines are seen
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938042 << namely.... maybe two ? wtf.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 20:17:27 asciilifeform: lobbes: as i understand, with that type of logger you'd have to regen all of the pages that include or follow the gap, in order to close a filled gap.
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938040 << this made entirely 0 the fuck sense, what the fuck, if you miss a line thereby the int'l dateline changes ?!
asciilifeform: ( if he did -- presumably manually fixed, and didn't bother to make a note of it )
asciilifeform: phf got away cleanly with calendarism because never tried to sync w/ anyone else .
asciilifeform: but would have to see what he says when wakes up.
asciilifeform: it's possible that mircea_popescu intends his item to be standalone, rather than pilot plant for all 'canonical' loggers. then dun matter so much whether calendar etc.
lobbes: I must digest these threads some more, methinks (though I thank asciilifeform for the edification). I'll bbl; sleep
ericbot: Logged on 2019-09-26 03:46:04 asciilifeform: imho a pregen-page logger must split on something ~other~ than calendarism.
lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/trilema/2019-09-26#1938150 << nevertheless, things like this are harder to implement once the concept of dates are thrown out the window
asciilifeform: fwiw i still have nfi what to do about e.g. this ...
asciilifeform: as naggum observed, regexism indeed helps to ~quickly~ shit out a proggy that ~appears~ to work. but it will never become proggy that ~actually worx~ i.e. can be shown to work for all inputs.
asciilifeform: ( they are regularly found ~not~ to )
asciilifeform: this is not even to touch on the q of whether a particular shitlang's regextron even worx as specified.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform, for instance, likes to think that his hands grow from shoulders, and not from arse, and still evidently produced these.
snsabot: Logged on 2017-02-09 12:53:33 asciilifeform: incidentally -- there is more to this crapolade than meets the naked eye. regexp is a fundamentally braindamaged concept -- not only in the way described by naggum (how do you infer false positives?) but also in the haskellian idiocy where 'reasonable' and 'thermonuclear self-annihilation' programs look nearly identical, and distinguishing them is np-hard
asciilifeform: regexps btw are a never-ending fountain of breakage like this.
asciilifeform: iirc diana_coman actually reported this one coupla wks ago, it seems to be on my chalkboard already !
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 00:07:47 asciilifeform: the browser is unable to send to '#1938120' to the box.
asciilifeform: can be anyffin, even line count. so long as it can be mechanically derived from the actual lines, rather than clocks.
asciilifeform: imho a pregen-page logger must split on something ~other~ than calendarism.
asciilifeform: if you introduce hard splits by date -- the example differential pair nao will not only not load identically, but also not echo. and worse, there will be no decidable algorithm for even determining what the link made for 1 logger, corresponds to on other.
asciilifeform: the current logger only is able to get away with disregarding dates when echoes, because the pages are dynamically genned
asciilifeform: the sooner we find a pill for this, the fewer speshulcase atrocities will have to be committed to make old log readable in new formats.
asciilifeform: even if they're not indexed by line, but take the form ...../chan/date?start=foo&end=bar
asciilifeform: if the links contain dates, and the date is in any way significant to the machine -- which, if you cut by 'day' the pages, it will be -- yer stuck with this horror.
asciilifeform: lobbes: understand also that the problem aint limited to '2 loggers agree'. clocks -- drift. arbitrarily. needs also to agree re links with ~past self~
asciilifeform: you gotta break the pages ~somehow~. q is how. if you do it by 'day', you end up stepping on same mine.
asciilifeform: lobbes: is it not apparent that you will have same problem if calendar is used ~anywhere at all~ ?
ericbot: Logged on 2019-09-26 00:54:16 mircea_popescu: whereas on trilema you have the whole power of the mp-wp selectylanguage at your disposals, you don't need the line numbers because you can just select w/e actually interests you
lobbes: Now, to revisit upstack, if you are intending to *sync* one mp-wp logger with another mp-wp logger, then I guess you'd run into the same issue as the trad. loggers. I.e. In order to sync you *would* need to index.
lobbes: re: two or more mp-wp loggers agreeing with each other; I'm not sure they would ever need to agree with each other in terms of links... IF not indexing. In other words, each instance of a mp-wp logger and its output becomes indistinguishable from any other blog post on said blog. (in other words, if you don't care to sync, or don't care if "missing" lines, then not an issue)
lobbes: I definitely see issue with traditional logger, but..
asciilifeform: but if you calendarize the pregenned-pages thing, you end up baking the 'when does day start' idiocy right into the db. where cannot even be easily later fixed...
asciilifeform: ^ observe that worx. from bot pov.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 00:05:26 lobbes: but I see the issue re: the traditional loggers agreeing with each other
asciilifeform: lobbes: does this make sense nao ?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-25 23:49:40 lobbes: but I see the issue re: the traditional loggers agreeing with each other
asciilifeform: the browser is unable to send to '#1938120' to the box.
asciilifeform: try to click on the snsabot link.
asciilifeform: the bots know what to do ( i wrote so it loads by index strictly ~when parsing for echo~ cuz ~possible~ there ) but yer browser does not !
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-26 00:05:26 lobbes: but I see the issue re: the traditional loggers agreeing with each other