asciilifeform: it is because mircea_popescu invited me. and i only stayed because he works with me on planeteering tech.

asciilifeform: if anyone forgot why i'm here,

asciilifeform: if i'm an imbecile, i will remain one whether 'looking like it' or not.

asciilifeform: i cannot speak for others, but i'm not particularly concerned with what i look like.

asciilifeform: i bet ninjashitgun & co are rubbing their cocks raw with glee reading the last 3 wks of logz.

asciilifeform: i dun evenhave a face.

asciilifeform: *republican

asciilifeform: we are pretty much reenacting republical side of spanish civil war here.

asciilifeform: the only people for whom this is 'great time' is: the enemy.

asciilifeform: trinque: stage is set for various folks doing smashingly dumb things because 'would otherwise lose face.'

asciilifeform: mno.

asciilifeform: and not logged in.

asciilifeform: and not only i have nfi, but i sorta wish i had taken vacation to the jungle for past 3 wks.

asciilifeform: jurov: i have nfi.

asciilifeform: (e.g., i never saw the ' mircea_popescu ought to personally eat the expense ' angle )

asciilifeform realizes that NOBODY agrees with asciilifeform on > 1 piece of this. but unsurprise.

asciilifeform: and not because he 'raises us to lords' or what.

asciilifeform: i like mircea_popescu because he's a fella who tips pencils.

asciilifeform: anyway i'm not personally mentally invested in any of this, and won't shed so much as nanoliter of tear .

asciilifeform: sadly.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 1st thing that always gets raised, when you raise a crowd, is its opinion of self.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: on this i must agree. it ~was~ ill-specified

asciilifeform: hanbot: i did not invent it

asciilifeform: and leads to moar churchez.

asciilifeform: in churches this is called 'schism'

asciilifeform: (what happens when lords a,b,c hate p,q,r,s and wont talk)

asciilifeform: i suppose this is yet another thing that we never specified.

asciilifeform: isn't a lord entitled to a formal lowering into pederasty ?

asciilifeform: l0l!

asciilifeform: if you felt like it.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: y'know you could kick him.

asciilifeform: apparently all of us but mircea_popescu are idiots ?

asciilifeform: well my argument was 'in order for bbet paying them X to be bbet's obligation, they oughta HAVE paid back the double.'

asciilifeform: was i?

asciilifeform: and yes, inside of a water pipe it is very boring.

asciilifeform: but like'em nevertheless.

asciilifeform: we don't live in the water mains

asciilifeform: my whole mission on planet3 is to multiply 'the places like that.'

asciilifeform: when done correctly - no. we don't sit here and argue about how the modular exponentiations came out.

asciilifeform: when done by idiots, yes.

asciilifeform: and yes, i fully expect rabbi to say that ~everything is rabbinical question~ aha.

asciilifeform: because folks wouldn't nail down their axioms.

asciilifeform: fact remains, this whole thing could have been an algorithmic question, but now is rabbinical.

asciilifeform: as in, the answer is not producible from the axioms.

asciilifeform: and that settlement is now a religious matter.

asciilifeform: and ergo broken.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i argued self into the position that the original system was ill-defined

asciilifeform: i;ll take the ball-peen plox

asciilifeform: 10 times!

asciilifeform: kakobrekla tells us that it never did.

asciilifeform: did the settlement formally include an originating addr for bbet ?

asciilifeform: and what was agreed upon as 'settlement' ?

asciilifeform: danielpbarron: or, rephrase the question, between whom and whom did the debt exist ?

asciilifeform: what, precisely, was promised, that contradicts this, danielpbarron ?

asciilifeform: so why should it not claim the doublesend as part of what was owed ?

asciilifeform: danielpbarron: and if you do not think it needs formalizing, 'we could only all agree if we all saw the light' (WHICH LIGHT?!@!!) - you are gravely mistaken.

asciilifeform: danielpbarron: as i understand, it was proposed as to one possible solution to formalizing the promise made by bbet when a bet is made.

asciilifeform: imho sacrificing anything worthwhile 'because it will break mixer' is lunacy.

asciilifeform: but not if it gets in the way of his main business

asciilifeform: now, i can see running a mixer from pure profit motive, like an atheist might run a kosher butcher shop

asciilifeform: davout: it might be problem, if some clever fella sends the 1MB tx with 0fee...

asciilifeform: ( i still have nfi WHY he send a 0fee ! )

asciilifeform: reactor test?

asciilifeform: waiwut?

asciilifeform: or breaks a non-feature.

asciilifeform: if we're subscribing to the 'all coin is fungible' religion, then mixers are a heresy. ☟︎

asciilifeform: or you get buluceala and chaos.

asciilifeform: regardless of how davout settles this, you gotta have a consistent algebra of debt.

asciilifeform: i would blame him if the next day he still says that i owe 100.

asciilifeform: no.

asciilifeform: because if tx-a had never happened, they would-have-been-paid-by-bbet

asciilifeform: which imho is poppycock

asciilifeform: the counter-argument seems to be that they were somehow 'not really paid by bbet'

asciilifeform: kakobrekla: then http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438770 ☝︎

asciilifeform: whereas if spec had been 'winners will receive C coins on addr A from addr B at time T if condition Q' then there would be no puzzle.

asciilifeform: (and if so, by whom)

asciilifeform: or merely 'graciously donated to.'

asciilifeform: it means that it is not obvious whether the bettors were in fact partially paid

asciilifeform: kakobrekla: king solomon's tale

asciilifeform: called in, to saw the baby in half.

asciilifeform: a fella with a long, sharp knife,

asciilifeform: ill-specified agreements lead to one thing,

asciilifeform: so then.

asciilifeform: kakobrekla: aha!

asciilifeform: jurov: so long as <= 1MB, fine!

asciilifeform: how does creditor know he was paid by debtor? how does debtor know he paid creditor ?

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has said that he intends to play the 'all coin is fungible and unidentifiable ' etc. game. which is fine. but what i don't grasp is how it is possible to craft hard record of debt and repayment without some hook on which to hang them.

asciilifeform: ( i have nfi why )

asciilifeform: but my understanding is that mircea_popescu and kakobrekla deliberately did not build it this way

asciilifeform: and it would have cured this particular buluceala - it would be obvious who is paying whom for what at all times.

asciilifeform: jurov: imho that would be an improvement

asciilifeform: protocol, vs promise.

asciilifeform: and replace it with mechanics.

asciilifeform: the whole ~point~, i thought, of bitcoin, is to nuke the buluceala

asciilifeform: whereas now it is not.

asciilifeform: the answer - would be obvious to anyone with half a neuron.

asciilifeform: i was arguing a more modest point, that if bbet had ~specified~ what it promised to bettors, we would have no thread here.

asciilifeform: (where it does no one any good to prove that a tx was encoded at a certain time, the sender can still doublespend the funds)

asciilifeform: nor with existing bitcoin

asciilifeform: jurov: yeah it wouldn't work with the time curve