116400+ entries in 0.826s
mircea_popescu: you two made me google that damned thing. seriously,
a mouse ?
mircea_popescu: . i'm with ben_v (and apparently ascii too) in that it's really best practice to make patches small and issue-focused. it's not just
a matter of review, it's to ease future rebasing and so on. as antidesign it may seem to you personally on the basis of workflow, this is one of those things where individual has to take
a small step back to allow society altogether to exist.
mircea_popescu: . i'm with punkman in that if you're going to prefix in that much detail, there's going to have to be some sort of filtering scheme. i'm not with him that flags are the solution, it just seems an ad-hoc hack unix did that got carried forward. i'm still partial to my multi-logfiles idea, fwiw. altogether
a lot more thought must be put into "how to structure" this, but sadly it depends on
a fully specified bitcoin, so it
mircea_popescu: just, in
a metaprogramming sense that did not exist prior to V putting light on the issue.
assbot: Logged on 29-01-2016 16:06:03; thestringpuller: how you gonna sell
a mouse for 60 bucks
mircea_popescu: so in full terms, i would say that again, including both in the same patch is both premature optimization and
a kludge.
phf:
a way to indicate (
a->
a' b->b') would normally be to include them both in
a single patch. i think that's how it's done now
mircea_popescu: nothing of course prevents you from taking z and rebasing it as
a first level node off x.
mircea_popescu: because people didn't make both y and z first level nodes of x, people are indicating that whether you know why or not, you need
a->
a' for b->b'.
mircea_popescu: phf nothing in the physical situation as you describe it indicates that. nevertheless, the implicit meaning in how the topo sort owrks is that you need
a to
a' for b to b' to be meaningful. this could be because one is .h and the other .cpp, fopr instance, or becauise other stuff is coming later or for any other reason
phf: so in the above example x y z are distinct patches, their effect is to take files through states,
a,
a',
a". so if
a patch takes
a->
a', then it needs
a in genesis. if
a patch takes
a'->
a" then it needs genesis and
a->
a' patch. i was trying to indicate that y and z modify two separate files, i'm trying to see what is there that indicates that state (
a' b') is desirable over (
a' b)
phf: if i have files
a b and patches x y z, x is genesis, y does
a->
a', z does b->b', topo sort x z y. if i were to ask for y press, i also get z, whether i need it or not. conversly if i press z, i don't get y.
mircea_popescu: that came in
a few different flavours historically, and amusingly all unaware of their communion and unadressing it.
mircea_popescu: the shortest path thing is not only premature optimization but also
a very mangled sort of heuristic.
mircea_popescu: you can't switch back. once you've decided to take the hardwood floor and light your stove with it, you can't then decide to take stove ash and make
a floor.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo ironically, consider the historical aspect. vc's strategic mistake to NOT submit early and well ensured that they don't have
a voice at the one time it'd have mattered. now they're getting locked out of bitcoin, which means computing, and what'll mit do, switch back to scheme because THAT is what junior devs will need to get jobs ?
phf: i'm confused about how v presses. i thought it was along the shortest path, but it actually does topological sort and then works with resulting list. so if my topo is
a b d c f and i ask to press c, then i get
a b d c?
ascii_butugychag: (if you have the patience, watch the films, even, they are interesting in
a number of ways incl. historically)
ascii_butugychag: whereas
a persistent lisp will need
a reconnectable pipe and this will require surgery inside tinyscheme's intestines
ascii_butugychag: adlai: to me it simply means 'i don't have to leave my editor and FUCK NO I AM NEVER pasting code into
a motherfucking shell 10000000 time
a day'
adlai: to me, and i imagine to programmers who have done CL work recently, "slime" means
a lot of things that you do NOT want
adlai: slime is
a massive turd, most of which is totally irrelevant for shiva (unless bitcoin-os is planned to serve as yet another example of Greenspun's 10th)
adlai: `slime-connect` is
a better starting point
ascii_butugychag: current thing is useless for swank though because it spins up
a fresh lisp for each connection
phf: i briefly looked at writing
a backend for pre-shiva tinyscheme, but it lacks network ports
adlai: ascii_butugychag: might be smoother sailing to start off from comint-mode and work upwards, rather than trying to fit slime onto so different
a backend
mircea_popescu: (different field, but same principle - you to this day can't beat literature as read at oxford cca 1880ish, just like you can't really beat it from mit cca 1960. the latter branch is obvious here, but the former'd be just as obvious in
a literature-powered ba)
mircea_popescu: mit used to be
a very respectable institution, merely
a few decades ago.
ascii_butugychag: adlai: '
a slime' in the sense of plugging an emacs session straight into the interpreter, with 'eval-region', 'eval current sexpr', as well as separate pane with repl, etc.
adlai: ascii_butugychag: yes, i've been following along quietly. not sure what you mean by "
a slime", literally interpreted this is rather meaningless as most of the swank-backends is highly CL specific stuff... i guess you mean
a less literal interpretation :)
mod6: how much does actual scheme differ from common lisp or lisp? can i get
a book for lisp (whatever latest megabook alf has posted recently) or do I need
a scheme specific book?
mod6: i've gotta take
a crash course in scheme very quickly or I won't be able to make heads or tails out of these code submissions. eek!
mircea_popescu: <ascii_butugychag> ideally
a vtron ought to be able to apply ANY well-defined operation << quite this, tho we might have to get there in steps.
punkman: well that'd be
a fun rabbit hole
mod6: <+ascii_butugychag> ideally
a vtron ought to be able to apply ANY well-defined operation << ok sure, this could be
a separate feature of V i guess... have to think on this.
ascii_butugychag: so, e.g., mircea_popescu's retabbing, would be
a five-line patch
mod6: yup, eventually this could be
a thing though, if we build our own tool
ascii_butugychag: ideally
a vtron ought to be able to apply ANY well-defined operation
ascii_butugychag: mod6: gnudiff is
a miserable straightjacket (see earlier monologue re: renaming)
mircea_popescu: you do
a miserable job of comments, btw. the thing with "only four bit state" has its disadvantages.
BingoBoingo: <ascii_butugychag> thestringpuller: sacrifice
a goat to satan << It's heretic apple, gotta sacrifice satan to
a goat since woz is gone.
ascii_butugychag: but in point of fact, the v-chain aspect prevents
a mistake from catastrophically breaking the world
mircea_popescu: so at the least
a hook for human debugging to save us from cold equationism IS provided.
mircea_popescu: now, one obvious solution (wasn't obvious to me at the time what it was
a solution to) is to INCLUDE COMMENTS in the patches, like i did with my only signed patch i didn't really intended as part of
a final pressing
thestringpuller: ascii_butugychag: well magicprefs is throwin an error (has
a triangle with exclamation mark in the top bar)
ascii_butugychag points out that he has been thinking about vtronics for
a VERY long time.
assbot: Logged on 29-01-2016 13:27:00; asciilifeform:
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-01-2016#1388268 << absolutely not, the very notion is
a violation of vtronics. NOW on the OTHER HAND - human-powered 'gardening' of the vtree is
a perfectly fine thing. notice how mod6 is doing
a splendid job of it. BUT conceivably it is also possible for archaeologists to take all of the orphaned crud i ever pasted and come up with
a correct vtree
mircea_popescu: or to put it in different terms : currently the V is equivalent to
a version of bitcoin where YOU are responsible for downloading blocks. it WILL verify them and form
a chain,
ascii_butugychag: (and, as i explained very early on, cycled are an error, and anyone attempting to introduce
a graph cycle deserves
a good thrashing)
mircea_popescu:
a) the presser might disagree and b) the V doesn't really distinguish
mircea_popescu: approach thematter from the other, practical side, maybe it's easier that way. so i made
a patch that did X, then i made
a patch that did X'. i consider X' to be > X.
ascii_butugychag: but i will note that introducing
a new patch that is binary-identical to an old one, is an error.
mircea_popescu: (and we'll likely end up stuck in THIS sort of mud pits
a lot more than i nthe "obvious" ones everyone thinks about)
mircea_popescu: merely inquiring what "longest chan" ACTUALLY MEANS is
a major point of actually defining bitcoin\
mircea_popescu: the reason i question all this is because suddenly
a possibility formed in my head, whereby v could have an equivalent of "longest chain". bitcoin does not follow THAT heuristic idly. but it must be said that
a) it's
a poorly defined heuristic and b) there are reasons.
mod6 ponders this question for
a minute.
mod6: punkman: good question, not sure at all. can try to take
a peek once we get past the 1st. i've got stuff stacked to the celing right now
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag mod6 if you wish to consider
a general problem : what is the ~correct~ thing to do for vtron when it encounters two validly signed patches doing the same thing ?
mod6: ascii_butugychag: i'll try to give your new patches
a shot tonight.
assbot: Logged on 29-01-2016 10:29:19; jurov: I know that i should manage the repository myself, but imo
a version field would be good to have so that I can easily spot if someone posts revised version of the same patch.
ascii_butugychag: (there was ~never~ referencing in my tinyscheme thing! it began with
a vtronically nailed-down copy of known vintage from my own hdd, and proceeds from there.)
thestringpuller: and coworkers make fun of me for using terminals and lightweight tools cause they "ain't pretty" the actual fuck. this is exactly why being
a web developer is like slow torture.
mod6: We've come
a very long way, and we've still got some road ahead (we all know), but we can't have
a republic with out the sovereigns participants who wish to make it.
ascii_butugychag:
a non-lazy programmer is about as useful as
a sedentary sprinter
mod6: ascii_butugychag much appreciates the labours of mod6 << alf, you've put in
a lot of effort too, and we all appreciate that very much.
ascii_butugychag: yes, it could take
a whole hour to set up whatever, and i might die bfore it saves me
a whole hour
mircea_popescu: actually that's the first time someone brought
a cogent, well thought out objection to the classic "programmers wanna play and so ruin productivity spending moe time on tools than the tools save" thing
☟︎ mod6: b-
a has honest and knowledgeable people who care about the innerworkings of the technology, on
a low-level, as well as on
a meta level.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> hey mod6 how would you rate working with b-
a vs working with job people ? are we just as enervating ye t? << this beats anything else I've ever encountered by
a wide margin.
ascii_butugychag: you can specify
a tag file it will fill from when tab(or your favourite other key)-completing.
mircea_popescu: me types three letters in editor, hits tabs
a few times, is very confused when the required fill-in doesn't occur.
mircea_popescu: hey mod6 how would you rate working with b-
a vs working with job people ? are we just as enervating ye t?
mircea_popescu: i'm quickly building
a reputation for
a wrecker of trb aren't i !