asciilifeform: @@ -1 +0,0 @@

asciilifeform: +++ b/foo.txt false

asciilifeform: --- a/foo.txt 846fdfb9d99724efbc97b1d2b519a221df9724dec3375c54913c1853af221c8e5ad5b5b8c38fffe4b654066071eafd8194fe7b86faa5fbadfbf1c5b872e81410

asciilifeform: diff -uNr a/foo.txt b/foo.txt

asciilifeform: here's one way:

asciilifeform: fiat lux.

asciilifeform: note the '--- a/foo.txt false'.

asciilifeform: +Foo Genesis, virginal.

asciilifeform: @@ -0,0 +1 @@

asciilifeform: +++ b/foo.txt 846fdfb9d99724efbc97b1d2b519a221df9724dec3375c54913c1853af221c8e5ad5b5b8c38fffe4b654066071eafd8194fe7b86faa5fbadfbf1c5b872e81410

asciilifeform: --- a/foo.txt false

asciilifeform: diff -uNr a/foo.txt b/foo.txt

asciilifeform: it also is:

asciilifeform: the genesis, note, is not merely a string of code.

asciilifeform: but in fact it -- definitionally -- does not, even if someone tries to 'give' it one.

asciilifeform: so it would appear, if you naively drew the graph, that the genesis now has an antecedent

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: because dr.mengele makes a patch that ~produces~ the genesis, thinking he is oh so clever

asciilifeform: that is the definition of genesis, it has no antecessor.

asciilifeform: it does not!!

asciilifeform: 'the buck stops here.'

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is a cycle topologically, but given as it contains the genesis, the 'ant walker' stops at the genesis, and does not walk in circles.

asciilifeform: mod6: so i guess you did not copy my toposort.

asciilifeform: and you won't, if you copied my toposort.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is not illegal in my vtron because the toposort still provably terminates.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: mod6 posted one above.

asciilifeform: like ants in a circle.

asciilifeform: or to press

asciilifeform: whereas in munchausen.tar.gz, you WOULD walk forever if you tried to flow

asciilifeform: you never walk the entire loop, full circle.

asciilifeform: see.

asciilifeform: because you can TRACE BACK TO GENESIS

asciilifeform: any patch in that loop is pressable without spinning in circle forever.

asciilifeform: mod6: take a paper and draw a loop containing the genesis.

asciilifeform: returns to genesis are topologically harmless and so were legal in my vtron (they cannot cause any kind of inconsistent behaviour.) note that a deedbotted vtron as discussed in today's thread, would still ban them.

asciilifeform: (where an item comes to exist ex nihilo, without flowing from genesis)

asciilifeform: notice, my vtron will not barf on it. because it does not cause a munchausening.

asciilifeform: because it takes you back to genesis

asciilifeform: this is not actually a cycle, do you know why ?

asciilifeform: even d00d with cock that only fits on a spool in atlantic cable-laying ship cannot break arithmetic.

asciilifeform: and this is rapidly turning into the one-time-pad thread.

asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu or anybody else wants to try to 'square the circle' and make a v-prime algo that doesn't need ordering, i will helpfully show how it breaks.

asciilifeform: why continue to pretend that this is an open problem ? do you see an issue with the blocktime algo ?

asciilifeform: i described one provably-correct algo for doing so, in this thread.

asciilifeform: whole thing is more or less a straight rip of it.

asciilifeform: see knuth's discussion of garbage collector, for related example.

asciilifeform: for so long as you ban cycles, the graph is guaranteed to behave in the predictable and sane way i described when first released v.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the antecedent hash in this example ~is~ the entire context, because the example is so short.

asciilifeform: i dun get the problem here?

asciilifeform: ^ for the l0gz.

asciilifeform: +Foo Genesis, modified.

asciilifeform: -Foo Genesis, virginal.

asciilifeform: @@ -1 +1 @@

asciilifeform: +++ b/foo.txt 5ce2953ce7e2d11ce399e45eaa49aa8865af8760dd763ae5aa4298133257cf9931b2f04bdedc38a3aff52fb7a61e990d9b611d397e3db08d0449fddd887d7c27

asciilifeform: --- a/foo.txt 846fdfb9d99724efbc97b1d2b519a221df9724dec3375c54913c1853af221c8e5ad5b5b8c38fffe4b654066071eafd8194fe7b86faa5fbadfbf1c5b872e81410

asciilifeform: diff -uNr a/foo.txt b/foo.txt

asciilifeform: they currently include the antecedent hash.

asciilifeform: (standard gnupatch behaviour gives you precisely this contextless crapola , yes)

asciilifeform: it would be a Bad Thing. if we were to do it. which we don't, because the antecedent hash gives us the context.

asciilifeform: quite so, and is half the reason why v is necessary to begin with.

asciilifeform: and make cycles.

asciilifeform: i can godelize your 'hash the patches' thing in the exact same way.

asciilifeform: that's what v is!!

asciilifeform: (imagine instead of doctor mengele, each of the 3 patches had been signed by different people)

asciilifeform: and if there were no time ordering, it would not be apparent who made the cycle

asciilifeform: and cycle, notice, was still easy to make

asciilifeform: (i.e. stuffing all of, e.g., trb, into one long document)

asciilifeform: notice, in the munchausen example, we had only 1 file, this is equivalent to 'hash everything'

asciilifeform: the word 'later' implies an order.

asciilifeform: you used the word 'later'

asciilifeform: you're still making use of the order.

asciilifeform: nope

asciilifeform: ordering -- matters.

asciilifeform: there is unfortunately not an escape from the clock. as per the lamportclock thread.

asciilifeform: well i do not maintain deedbot, and only could ask politely.

asciilifeform: and i nailed it in 2015.

asciilifeform: but imho the problem is thoroughly nailed.

asciilifeform: thinking doesn't hurt.

asciilifeform: it'll need a 1-patch-at-a-time hopper.

asciilifeform: not sure that deedbot as-it-now-is would do the trick though

asciilifeform: that is ordered enough for this job.

asciilifeform: fortunately we have a clock.

asciilifeform: i agree.

asciilifeform: rather than clock.

asciilifeform: orderer can be, e.g., a 'primus inter pares' monarch.

asciilifeform: btw it does not require clock as such, only orderer.

asciilifeform: i asked many times for the clock, and pretty sure i explained ~why~

asciilifeform: 'there is mud on my hands' 'faucet is right there, go wash' 'don't discuss solution, let's discuss problem!'

asciilifeform: with 1-patch-per-block, there can be no ambiguity as to who is responsible for closing a cycle.

asciilifeform: it is an ex-problem.

asciilifeform: it is a taxidermic head of a problem hanging in my study wall.

asciilifeform: i contend that it isn't a problem, and that i solved it before releasing v.

asciilifeform: it isn't though. it is mathematically bulletproof.

asciilifeform: then we know the T at which no cycles, and the T+1 at which cycle exists.

asciilifeform: not if 1 patch per blocktime.

asciilifeform: and we immediately will know who.

asciilifeform: and close a cycle.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for the two paths to begin to exist, someone has to take a shit in the graph

asciilifeform: but yes, for my simple culprit-finding algo, you DO need well-ordered set of patches.

asciilifeform: if only for the n00bz.

asciilifeform: it is eminently worth examining.