1036100+ entries in 0.692s
mircea_popescu: EskimoBob well, yeah. it'd be a
twin bond and insurance ?
EskimoBob: lets say you go for a FRN. Yes. part of
the coupon (% what you have
to pay me) is fluctuating but no matter what,
there is still a fixed part of %
EskimoBob: now,
the moment you make it in
to a "if I make you get..."
things get more complicated
EskimoBob: the problem with bonds is: I as a bond holder, do not rally "care" so you make or lose money. No matter what happens, you owe me
the promised % and you are obligated
to return
the principal
EskimoBob: kakobrekla: let me know when you are done and
the lest run few
test
EskimoBob: mircea_popescu: you wanted
to look at some securities?
EskimoBob: fasten your seat belts! Nnew! Super cool! GLBSE db melting
toy is on it's way :)
usagi: i am going
to sleep soon
mircea_popescu: for many reasons, including "cant sell your own child" and "can't establish
the best price
to sell art so can't sell"
mircea_popescu: but i dont imagien he mined very much, and i dont
think he sold any of it
BTC-Mining: Did he ever mine at all
to start with? I suppose so or
there wouldn't have been a first few blocks. Unless he found a few people not long before launched, pitched
the concept, and
they started
to mine since day one
that
the code was released
BTC-Mining: I got
to repair
that hole in
the screening... night bugs keep entering and go for my screen
mircea_popescu: cause
that's prolly an important value, seeing how its really 21 mn -
that.
mircea_popescu: has anyone done a count of money
that has not moved since
the mtgox failure ?
BTC-Mining: noagendamarket: You know what's worse? I'm sure plenty of early adopters from
the first months who were mining
them a plenty deleted
their wallet and left because
their
thousands of bitcoins were worth a few measly cents
noagendamarket: I regret sending Bruce Wagner
the first
twitter message about bitcoin :D
mircea_popescu: my first day haha. after vragnaroda got me
to sit still for long enough
to comprehend why gpg wot is a good idea
coingenuity: and
then it suddently started going from $2->$5 ->$20
mircea_popescu: my memory is not
THAT BAD yet, current year i still can access fine
BTC-Mining: Like someone on
the forum said, it
takes quite a bit of seeding and efforts
to get an issue going.
noagendamarket: mircea_popescu no we havent. I havent
traded otc for a long
time.
BTC-Mining: I somehow managed
to get BTC-Mining out of
the low volume, numerous new issues
that keep popping up.
mircea_popescu: noagendamarket btw, have we
traded ?
the name sure is familiar.
noagendamarket: or
they pay dividends for a short while from IPO funds
then run off :/
BTC-Mining: I see no reason
to see any difference for bitcoins
BTC-Mining: You can find
thousands of "personal startups" websites outside of bitcoin world and
they almost fail 100%
BTC-Mining: and many issuers are not only anonymous, but
they want people
to invest in a half done website/business
mircea_popescu: an ipo is
the pinnacle of a career, not a sophomore year project.
mircea_popescu: you don't ipo as a dood
that doesn't even know what gpg is.
BTC-Mining: Fact of
the matter is, anyone can join GLBSE
BTC-Mining: How would you achieve such a
thing as a web of
trust for assets?
coingenuity: i've just heard something about some defaulting securities on
the forum
coingenuity: imo, unless
there is some kind of web of
trust for bitcoin funded assets, its a moot argument
to me :P
mircea_popescu: anyway im really curious what
the guy has
to say. wake up bobby!!!
BTC-Mining: Well I have an actual mining copurchase shares on offer for
those interested in less random
things
than mining "bonds"
noagendamarket: A mining bond means you pay
the operator for priviledge of loaning
them money :)
BTC-Mining: Ah, who started with giving
those
the name "bond"
to start with?
BTC-Mining: A bond is a loan, it's
tied
to pay coupons AND pay back
the full principal
mircea_popescu: but yea, it's really very contorted
to define in fiat-terms what a mining "bond" is.
mircea_popescu: which is never physically settled, yes, but by
the cash value
mircea_popescu: my only ownership is over
the
theoretical output of a
theoretical machine
mircea_popescu: if i hold a
treasury my ownership extends over a certain sum of us$.
mircea_popescu: noagendamarket actually if
the asic companies run off with everyone's money it might increase
BTC-Mining: I'm just not following you on
that last bit...
mircea_popescu: well in
theory it's principal backing is
that you have
the option
to directly realise your underlying mh/s
mircea_popescu: and if someone
tried
the house/sec./etc would have a weeklong fit
mircea_popescu: they are somewhat like floating bonds except really
they're more like floating warrants
BTC-Mining: They are more like floating bonds moving up and down according
to
the operation's state I suppose.
BTC-Mining: The contract is
that of a bond, but
the issuers (at least
the most reputable ones in
the bitcoin community) decided not
to leave
them as fixed bonds.
mircea_popescu: that people in general aren't capable
to correctly value.
mircea_popescu: hey, i've made profits
too, but
the point remains :
they aren't really bonds.
BTC-Mining: Well in any case, mining so far has been constantly profitable. And so far I see no real loss for any long
term miners. GPUs can be resold, although if you bought just before FPGA/ASICs, it's pretty much a loss.
mircea_popescu: and by
the
theory you can fleece a sheep many
times but skin him only once, are now sweetening
the deal"
BTC-Mining: Goodwilling decisions are not acceptable, unless otherwise it would
tarnish
them and cause a loss of revenue
mircea_popescu: a different way
to express
this would be "the issuers realised how badly
they're screwing so called but not really investors
BTC-Mining: All employees within a corporation are employed
to get more money for
the corporation.
BTC-Mining: Because
they sold X, not
the underlying equipment
that is upgraded
BTC-Mining: They wouldn't upgrade
to Y something on
the pretense X something is now upgradable
BTC-Mining: I can hardly see a corporate entity acting like
this
BTC-Mining: It is a bond,
that's where you see
the community is small and run by single individuals.
mircea_popescu: yes, it could be a bond in
the very
tenuous
theory where hash power is a currency
BTC-Mining: Or he could go: Well you did pay for
the equipment I'm
trading in. I'll raise
to Y mhash on
those contracts and keep a similar margin
BTC-Mining: He could do it
that way: I've sold you a contract for X mhash. Equipment remains mine, and I'll
trade it for 20x more mhash, but won't give you anything
BTC-Mining: Well yes and no. It's
technically a sale of power, but
the equipment is managed by Gigavps who has a margin vs what he gets with what people paid.
mircea_popescu: if i
tack on
the option for you
to
turn it into an airplane
BTC-Mining: yeah, but he'll have
to lose
them with raising difficulty
BTC-Mining: So for
that part, upgrade was already paid by investors