1022400+ entries in 0.761s
BTC-Mining: But when you insisted on
the guaranteed % for
the customer, I started asking about
the impact for
the broker instead, since
there was supposed
to be one.
kakobrekla: im glad we had
this discussion might help me write better faq
BTC-Mining: aye, I really wasn't sure if
there was a misunderstanding between you and your contact.
BTC-Mining: Good, you never answered
to
that before. Arf, what an ordeal. Could have ended much earlier.
BTC-Mining: Just wanted
to know if
that was clear with
the broker.
BTC-Mining: BTC/fiat price has a big impact on
the broker unders
the
terms
that it doesn't affect
the customer
BTC-Mining: yes,
that's
the answer I was desperatly looking for. If
the broker is aware of
the risk/what he's going
to do.
Enky: i want
to operate, no demo:)
kakobrekla: if you can use your imagination
to change eur profile
to btc you can
test it now
Enky: when will be possible
to
test it kako?
mircea_popescu: BTC-Mining i imagine it's something like
that, get
the ball rolling see what happens.
BTC-Mining: Well if it's just a
test for
the heck of it...
kakobrekla: i guess its more of a pocket change for
them
BTC-Mining: Yeah, but
that's INCREDIBLY RISKY for
the broker
rg: that's my
total shares right
kakobrekla: BTC-Mining,
thats why
there is
this enourmeus suppy of coins in
the bank
mircea_popescu: yeah. in fact multiple people can deposit from same address (and
they have, mtgox, etc)
BTC-Mining: The problem is, even if he's long on bitcoin... suppose someone makes a gain in fiat position (10%).
That gain is in fiat. During
that
time, BTC value indeed goes long, it raises 200%.
Try
to buy with 10% fiat profit 10% profit in bitcoins worth 3x
the price. You'd need
to have made 30% profit on
the position
to pay
the 10% in bitcoins.
rg: dont you
think you should make deposit
the long
too
kakobrekla: i have introduced bitcoin
to
them in january i
think
mircea_popescu: good. cause as i was saying, btc is very volatile and has in
the past, even recent past, caused a lot of pain.
kakobrekla: well i guess
that
the broker is 'long' on bitcoin
mircea_popescu: in december i send you 1k btc for 1 lot,
that's 100k usd for 1 lot ?!
BTC-Mining: then broker is highly at risk of BTC/fiat price fluctuations. We understand
the customer part, just not what
the broker will do
to protect against wild BTC price fluctuations.
Enky: if bitcoin go
to 100 you have
to change
the limit
kakobrekla: the size of
the deposit limits
the max
trading amount allowed
mircea_popescu: so if
the units are btc
then how come i buy fiat with
them ?
BTC-Mining: yes, but
the broker isn't, and kako isn't answering about
that
Enky: they have
twice
the amount of bitcoin held by customers, right kako?
kakobrekla: you can
trade up
to 0.1 lot of anything you like
BTC-Mining: and will
the broker hedge against BTC/fiat fluctuations?
BTC-Mining: It doesn't work kako,
that's not how Forex works O.o
mircea_popescu: then at
the end you go back into btc, at
then prevailing rates.
mircea_popescu: well im sure you get your btc at
then prevailing rates.
BTC-Mining: Somehow BTC/fiat value has no impact in all
this
BTC-Mining: Yes, but Kako doesn't seem like he's going
to hedge and says a 10% gain/loss on position = a 10% gain/loss on BTC
Enky: but i dont know long
term plan of
that broker
mircea_popescu: hahaha so
then what's
the big deal, broker/whoever buys options
BTC-Mining: mircea, you're not
trading ANY position containing BTC whatsoever.
mircea_popescu: then i've made a 300% price decrease and
that means a 300`000% gain on my position
mircea_popescu: the problem is i put 1k btc into
that market, for 10mn
BTC-Mining: But broker only demands 50% of BTC used for
that, so 500 BTC loss. But BTC went
to 1 USD each during
the position.
BTC-Mining: Yeah, problem with
that leverage of 1:1000 is, imagine guy with 1000 BTC going
that way for 10 million USD and his position loses 0.05% (5k USD). x1000 for leverage, 50% loss.
gribble: (sell <amount> <thing> [at|@] <priceperunit> <otherthing> [<notes>]) -- Logs a sell order for <amount> units of <thing, at a price of <price> per unit, in units of <otherthing>. Use
the optional <notes> field
to put in any special notes. <price> may include an arithmetical expression, and {mtgox(ask|bid|last)}
to index price
to mtgox ask, bid, or last price. May also include (1 more message)
gribble: Best bid: 10.86553, Best ask: 10.887, Bid-ask spread: 0.02147, Last
trade: 10.86553, 24 hour volume: 87642, 24 hour low: 10.43399, 24 hour high: 11.17
mircea_popescu: i doubt
therer's anyone with 10mn
to dick around with.
BTC-Mining: The
thing is, his contact was
talking about 1:1000 leverage being possible. I doubt
they'd
take so much risk as a broker
BTC-Mining: Well I guess it's up
to kako
to see how
that will be worked out.
Enky: they can reduce
the leverage in any case, we are
talking of small potatoes here, few users with bitcoin when
they have maybe 100k users
Enky: maybe
they do
that for advertising,to gain new users, and so
they accepted
to
take
that risk for marketing purpose, who knows...
BTC-Mining: BTC/fiat price does matter a lot for
the broker, especially if you go with high leverage like 1:1000
BTC-Mining: BTC/fiat price will impact
the broker, simply because
the % profit is in fiat, and he pays
the same % in bitcoin, regardless of if bitcoin has gone up or down in value vs fiat
Enky: compared
to
the rest of
their customers
Enky: probably
they are big enough
to
take
that risk, considering
that at
the begining
there will be few users
that will
trade with bitcoins
kakobrekla: 17:44.33 ( Enky ) or 30% with 10
to 1 leverage
Enky: have no info on how it manage internally
these orders
Enky: it come from
the broker, dunno if he hedge your
trade in some way
mircea_popescu: well i guess
this will need
to be fleshed out more
then.
BTC-Mining: Who eats
the risk of fluctuation is unclear.
BTC-Mining: mircea, I had
that exact discussion over and over
mircea_popescu: mk, so let's see here. suppose i deposit 100 btc. at
that
time btc is 100 yen. i
trade for yen, get 10k. a week later, btc is 50 yen. i
trade back get 200 btc. now i withdraw. you pay me 200btc
BTC-Mining: I'm assuming
they'll assume
the price fluctuation risk here
BTC-Mining: Ah... does
that broker firms understand how wildly BTC price can vary?
kakobrekla: im working
together with an existing forex broker firm
kakobrekla: i have been asked
to be a part of
that operation (dealing with btc stock etc)
BTC-Mining: Yes, for
the user it is, I'm concerned about kako here
Enky: for
the user it's ok
BTC-Mining: that's all fine, but
there's no 10% gain on position = 10% gain in BTC in
that equation