863600+ entries in 0.55s
fractal: Anduck: not according
to
the language of
the bet.
Anduck: or units, anything you want
to call it
Anduck: the promised performance of
the customer-bought kits must be met¨
Anduck: fractal:
they can ship as much h-boards as
they want but
the PERFORMANCE must be met
fractal: UNIT.... not 'oh we ship as much hardware
to make up for it if
the manufacturer misses specs'
Anduck: it's very clear it means
the promised miner ( a kit or a unit)
Anduck: the unit is
the same
thing as a kit
fractal: Anduck: No its not met.. punin admits
they are under-hashing
Anduck: if he shipped GPU's,
the performance (400 gh @ 400 watts) wouldn't be met
fractal: Anduck: I dont see any mention of KIT on
there. And If i read
the language
the performance is not met in a device.
mircea_popescu: fractal well ya but it wouldn't be economically feasible
to do so
Anduck: we're
talking about kits as units anyway since
they never sold single units.
they're KITS
fractal: Anduck: Not according
to
the language
though...
Anduck: fractal: he's allowed
to ship as much h-boards and m-boards needed
to get
the performance. it wouldn't break
the bet.... if
they would eat more watts
than promised,
that would be a bet-breaker
fractal: mircea_popescu: becaucause he could ship as much hardware
to make up for it -- provided
the power usage was low enough.... but I placed
the bet based on Power usage AND hashrate in a single self-contained UNIT
kleeck: and
they have
to be a "mining unit" and
they have
to hash at
the given rates and draw at
the given powers.
fractal: you removed
the word UNIT didn't you??? very sneaky!
Anduck: they must meet
the advertised performance (25gh @ 40W and 400gh @ 400W)
fractal: Anduck: If
the bet language said "If punin can't make a 400Gh single device, he's allow
to ship as much hardware as he wan'ts, and we'll just consider it a 'KIT' "" --- if it said
that,
there's no way in my right mind i would have bet NO... it would be an impossible bet
to win
Anduck: bfsb kits must be delivered
this month.. .and
Anduck: they must be delivered
this month
kleeck: There are multiple clauses in
the bet
that must be
true for it
to be "YES".
Anduck: well
the bet is about performance, not
the amount of h-boards used
to produce
the performance of
the unit
fractal: Anduck:
Thats not what
the bet says
Anduck: well
the customers were promised 400 gh miner.............
fractal: Anduck: No, its not.
The bet says nothing of a KIT. it says a mining unit. Somehing
that is a single prodcut attacted..... 2 seperate products adding up
to more
then 400Gh mean
that
the manufacturer missed performance spec for
that unit
Anduck: customers ordered 400 gh mining kits.. and
they got what were promised
Anduck: there was and never could've been a single card producing 400 ghash, it was sold as a "h-cards enough
to make 400 ghash unit". RIGHT?
fractal: kleeck: If it's multiple mining units,
then Anduck is not correct..
fractal: kleeck: Just like BFL shipped out multiple units
to compensate,
that is what punin is doing.
kleeck: Yes. What I'm seeing is
the classic, "Oh come on, we all knew
the intended bet!" Which isn't a sound defense.
The debate must center around
the words used
to describe
the bet. If
the product is a "mining unit" and meets
the spec in
the bet,
then Anduck is correct, else fractal is correct.
fractal: Anduck: Again,
the language of
the bet doesn't match up with
the fact
that performance was missed on
the 25Gh board,,,
the fact
that
they got more or were satisfied is irrelevant
Anduck: the -performance- promised
to customers is met. customers get exactly
the performance
they ordered.
mircea_popescu: fractal also why i asked you if it's your first
time and advised you go small.
these
things do happen.
fractal: Anduck: Sorry,
the language doesn't say 'KIT'
Anduck: fractal:
the 25gh unit is a 25gh kit as sold for customers, doesn't say it must include 1 h-board.
fractal: Anduck:
The performance requirement was *not* met. No single H-card operates at 25Gh!
mircea_popescu: the attempt
to make
the context entirely explicit is burdensome and provably doomed.
mircea_popescu: human language is not meaningful unless
the receptor supplies context
to make it meaningful.
the contexts receptors supply often vary.
fractal: mircea_popescu: right.... but in fairness,
the bet doesn't say
that
the manufactuere can miss hashrate performance on a single 25Gh board, and ship more
to make up for it!
Anduck: the statement is super clear in my eyes, really. people get what
they ordered. people get
the hashrate at
the watts
they were promised.
the performance requirement (which
the bet was about) IS met.
mircea_popescu: kleeck bitbet is a fascinating exercise in
the limits of communication.
mircea_popescu: fractal in fairness,
the "self contained device" part is also not in
the bet
text.
Anduck: fractal:
then you
tried
to work
the semantics against
the statement of
the bet or what?
kleeck: we certainly can't google
this...
fractal: Anduck: well I only placed a no bet based on
the language of a UNIT being a self-containted device
that is attached....
Anduck: and as customers weren't sold specifically 1 or 16 h-boards,
the kits can include any amount of
those..
the kits must meet
the promised performance and
they seem
to do so
kleeck: TomServo, no,
that isn't
the question.
fractal: mircea_popescu: yeah
thats it...
mircea_popescu: Aug 27 17:25:45 <fractal>what if
they ship 2 units
to make up for lower hashrates?
TomServo: I don't understand
the debate over kit, unit, whateverthefuck. Does
the 'thing' do 400GH/s @ 400W or not?
mircea_popescu: <fractal> Anduck: I came in here specifically
to ask mircea_popescu and he said
that a 400Gh 'UNIT' must exist --- based on
the math, it can't <<< which snippet is
this ?
fractal: Anduck: you can't make a vague bet, and
then claim 'semantics' when you lose
fractal: Anduck:
thats not what
the bet language says.
fractal: Anduck: not on a single unit -- as
the language says in
the bet
kleeck: Are
the assembled kits meeting spec once made into a mining unit?
Anduck: there can be (and will be) enough h-boards so
the 400gh kit does 400 ghash
fractal: Anduck: I only placed a NO bet because I didn't belive
they'd hit 400Gh in a single unit. BFL missed, and others.
The bet says
that
there should be a 400Gh unit shipped, and it should be under 400W.... it might be under 400W, but its not 400Gh
Anduck: no need for 16 h-boards in
the 400gh kit
fractal: Anduck: 68 /3 = 22.... 22*16 = 352Gh maximum in a single 'Miner', or selft contained 'unit' or 'kit.....
This does not exist because
the manufactuere missed performance specs....
The bet says nothing of customer relations by refunding or sending more hardware
kleeck: So,
they are getting kits instead of completed devices and
those devices are meeting spec?
Anduck: and
the customers are getting delivered
those performances
Anduck: so i
think unit should be understood as kit
kleeck: Is
the debate around
the phrase, "mining units"?
Anduck: but
that is
the statement, isn't it??
fractal: Anduck: Sorry, again,
thats not what
the bet language says
Anduck: that doesn't mean it doesn't meet
the performance promise of
the kit/unit
Anduck: they just said
that
the kit will include more h-boards
than it was meant
to
fractal: Anduck:
Thats not what
the bet language says
Anduck: they ship what
they promised
Anduck: fractal:
they sell kits, not units
fractal: Anduck: Shipping additonal hardware because
the company missed spec does not mean
that
there is a 400Gh UNIT
Anduck: i have 3 h-boards..
they eat 54 watts from
the wall
kleeck: I haven't read it yet. I will if you want. I was chiming in more
to
the point of "do semantics matter" - I'll read
the bet.
fractal: Anduck: I came in here specifically
to ask mircea_popescu and he said
that a 400Gh 'UNIT' must exist --- based on
the math, it can't
mircea_popescu: kleeck
the problem is
that you only have clear communication in retrospect.
Anduck: kleeck: what do you
think, what's clearer way
to understand
the statement of
the bet?
Anduck: i
think
the statement is more importnat
kleeck: I disagree mircea_popescu. I understand
that
there are situations, like
this one, but
there are ways of being more clear and less clear.
Therefore clearity exists even if on a spectrum..
fractal: Anduck:
The language on
the bet says it can't.
Anduck: they dont sell units or devices,
they sell kits
Anduck: fractal: as i said,
that case is not a bfsb product
Anduck: i mean,
the case in
that picture*
Anduck: that picture is not bfsb.com product.
the customer made it himself
kleeck: Yes.
The "edge" is in clearly communicating. :)
fractal: Anduck: please let me know if you have
trouble loading
this image, i can mirror it for you somehwere else
Anduck: fractal:
that case is not part of
the bet nor is
that case in
the bfsb.com shop
mircea_popescu: kleeck
there's always going
to be some edge. natural language is what it is.
Anduck: but it is, fractal.
they sell KITS