863400+ entries in 0.58s
fractal: mircea_popescu: maybe
the deciders will read
these logs and
the conversation on
the page and be influenced
Anduck: but if
there wasn't any 400gh units ordered in
the first ordered units
Anduck: it's been proven
that a mining card does meet
the advertised performance..
mircea_popescu: fractal he has no involvement in
the decision of it
tho, so why shouildn't he argue it ?
jurov: Anduck, you really meant different conditions for shipping and delivery? i don't believe
that
Anduck: mircea_popescu: yeah,
true. but
that
the bet shouldnt be failed due
that..
they're all same modular cards
that
the mining unit is built from
fractal: mircea_popescu: which I
think would make it a conflict of intrest for him
to debate it -- I
think 3rd parties who are neutral should strictly look at
the language -- otherwise he can just say 'oh,
thats not what i meant!' and fuck over
the NO bets ;(
Bunnyh: i see 3 requirements: a)
they must ship both kinds of devices (25G and 400G) before 1st. b) both kinds of devices must meet power/speed requirements. c) 5 deliveries confirmed (this req. doesn't specify which kind of devices)
mircea_popescu: they know wtf is going on, don't include 400gh if
they have no orders
to ship for 400gh etc
mircea_popescu: well you know it's always good policy
to get
the manufacturer
to write
the bet, even if you want
to bet on yes.
fractal: Anduck: Honestly, it seems
to me like you wrote a vague bet,
that other people have read
totally differently, and you're
trying
to change 'what you meant' .... its not fair man, seriously.
jurov: obviously
the delivery and shipping should be subject
to same conditions
Anduck: which in my eyes doesn't really need both of
the mining units shipped
fractal: Anduck:
then
the statement in
the bet fails.
jurov: "will ship
their 25 and 400" << it's AND not OR
fractal: there needs
to be at least 1 400Gh UNIT hashing as advertised -- and if
they miss performance, sending more UNITS doesn't count
mircea_popescu: jborkl re
the wording : any
time one sees a badly worded bet
they can make a better worded one, which at least
theoretically would create an advantage for his bet over
the old bet and people would flock
there.
Anduck: and i
think
that is met if
there are 5 confirmed deliveries
Anduck: the bet is about
that
they will ship
their boards in
time and
they meet
the performance
fractal: Common man!!
the bet specifically says "Delivered"
Anduck: mircea_popescu: how about if a 400gh unit was shipped
this week but not delivered?
ThickAsThieves: "Further
to
the above,
TradeFortress has announced
that Coinlenders is closing - and
that
the current site is only a demo, but one which has
the same functionality as a real site would (a similarish approach
to BTC-TC's "it's just a game" stance -
though actually a worse one from an investor's perspective)."
fractal: Anduck: of course not -- if
they dont ship a 400Gh order
they are just like BFL
Anduck: so about
the bet.. can
the 5 confirmed deliveries be any orders?
fractal: Forget about
the 400Gh being shipped --
the issue is what defines a 'UNIT' as advertised and meeting performance specs
jborkl: I do
think
the wording on
the bets needs work, more people would bet if
they were clearer
mircea_popescu: jurov it'd be fucking crazy
tho. what,
they sold like 9 boards
to 5 ppl ?
Anduck: jurov: but
that's just plain wrong..
jurov: if
they failed
to sell 400gh
then..well it's a failure
jborkl: well,
then we have our answer
mircea_popescu: somehow, somewhere. else
the bet is only half satisfied
mircea_popescu: jborkl
the rationale is
that since
there's an A and a B in
the bet, and 5 proofs, you want
those 5 proofs rto include both A and B
mircea_popescu: this is an important point
to remember : you NEVER bet on a bet such
that you can't neutralize it later should you need
to.
mircea_popescu: fractal pretty much
the only way it works, make your bet neutral.
jborkl: and
to clarify I do not have a order or a bet
Anduck: and it works = meets
the adverticed performance. it's been proven earlier
fractal: mircea_popescu: so you suggest cancelling bet buy betting on
the other side ...
the weight is
too low
though ;) i dont have enough BTC ;(
Anduck: mircea_popescu:
true. but we don't know was
the first orders (that were shipped
this week) including a 400gh miner. but it's proven
that it does work if one actually bought one
jurov: as i said if no 400gh order was delivered, and we require at least one,
then
the bit was not filled
Anduck: mircea_popescu:
there is an example of 400 ghash unit but it was a demo, not delivered unit. but
that can be delivered if anyone bought it. it's
the same m-boards and h-boards.. just enough of
them
to make
the hashrate of 400gh
fractal: mircea_popescu: i'm reading
the bet cancellation policy link now...
thanks
mircea_popescu: jborkl how much was
the 400 ? like 150 btc or something ?
fractal: the problem here I
think is what is a 'UNIT' ---
this is what we're debating ;)
Anduck: i
think
the 5x 25gh would be sufficient
too (but my opinion must be non-counting due
to
the fact i am on "yes" side of
the bet)
fractal: i can get
them if needed
tho
fractal: jborkl: I asked mircea_popescu
this question , in
the logs he said he'd like
to see proof of a 400Gh unit as well as a 25Gh unit ... i dont have logs
tho
fractal: jurov: it's not just 400Gh being shipped --- its 400Gh in a single unit as advertised -- if
they ship more hardware
to make it up for it -- its because performance wasn't met
jborkl: I
think
the 5 25 would be sufficient
jurov: now
the question is, whether we require proof of one 400gh order filled,
too
jborkl: jurov: I would
think reading it first order of business is
the 5 delivery, as you were looking at
fractal: Anduck: according
to
the wording its
totally not fair for 2 M-boards or multiple hardware considered a 400gh 'unit' since
the company advertised a 400Gh unit as "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for
total of 256 chips"" ---
to be honest --
the vagureness of
the langugage makes it unfair for either side
to win or lose --
Anduck: there are most likely going
to be 5 deliveries of
the 25gh units
jurov: jborkl, only
the 25ghs
jborkl: have
there been 5 deliveries of either of
the units?
fractal: Anduck: I'm in for nearly
that on
the NO side...
Anduck: the same
that were shipped
to me
Anduck: there actually was weeks ago a 400gh rig built from
these h-boards
fractal: the other
thing i'm worried about is punin sending pictures
to a forum user and paying
them
to post a 400Gh unit saying its hashing at 400Gh -- rumour has it punin made
the 10BTC yes bet
Anduck: since it's proven
that 400gh unit will meet
the spec
Anduck: jurov: what do you
think, does it require a delivery of 400 gh unit?
jurov: and
thus any bickering about what hardware
the 400gh means is noot
Anduck: but
there might be shipped 400 gh units.
Anduck: jurov: yeah
there isn't any delivered yet
fractal: I only made
the bet based on what I say on
the bitfury website --
that a 400Gh unit was "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for
total of 256 chips"
jurov: and now i want
to know whether *any* 400gh order was fullfilled
fractal: jurov: i dont disagree -- but not according
to
the bet langugae
jurov: fractal, it's usual
that specs are subject
to change
fractal: jurov: it can't be regarless of h-boards because
thats not what was advertised on a performance basis -- "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for
total of 256 chips"
Anduck: thats hardware promise -
that wasn't met. but it wasn't about hardware
fractal: its right on
their website -- 400Gh mining unit "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for
total of 256 chips"
fractal: I'm
trying
to make a unit what was advertised -- 1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for
total of 256 chips
Anduck: i
think unit is
the mining unit.
Anduck: you're just
trying
to make "unit" be a "h-board"
fractal: you can't just say 'Oh,
that langugage is not what I meant!!'
fractal: No, you weren't -- not according
to
the bet langugage -- which is what matters
Anduck: the bet was about
that
Anduck: they deliver
the promised performance.
that's it
Anduck: but i just want
to know is it even possible
Anduck: and is
there a fee or something for
that
Anduck: mircea_popescu: can
the bets be canceled,
then?
jurov: because if someone ordered and did not get it yet,
then bet is false
jurov: so, i prefer
to ask whether anyone actually ordered
that product (regardless of actual HW)
fractal: Anduck:
to be honest -- i'd rather cancel
the bet
then have a long forum discussion
that
takes hours of debate over
the next few days -- if you'd agree... otherwise I'll have
to clear my schedule ;)
fractal: jurov:
thats just good customer support -- but doesn't make
the fact
that
the 400Gh miner isn't 400Gh any different --- and
thats what
the bet language is about
Anduck: or whatever you want
to call it