712200+ entries in 0.349s
assbot: I don't know
those people, and
they don't look very friendly.
assbot: I don't know
those people, and
they don't look very friendly.
bounce: right in character
too. my,
there goes my snark.
mircea_popescu: then im all like... o wow check out how fucking smart
this dood is!
mircea_popescu: bounce no because most of
the
time i don't remember what i said
bounce: so
that's why you
talk so much. can skip any lines you wrote yourself come log reading
time.
mircea_popescu: note
tho
that
they're my shares, if i sell
them under nav... well...
tough
tits for me.
mircea_popescu: i have, for like... i dunno, a year or
two ? BILLIONZ OF LINES!11
ThickAsThieves: sounds like
the mpif general mgr needs
to be an active one
mircea_popescu: and it may jump further up, according
to what experience will indicate
mircea_popescu: mike_c well
that's
the one good argument for increasing
the berth
there, actually. 1.5% may be
too narrow,
mircea_popescu: mpif may definitely end up with a large cash balance, but
this would be a negative commentary on
the btc financial space, rather
than on mpif itself.
mike_c: ok ok. but
this
then all relies on you having a very good idea what your nav is at a given
time.
mircea_popescu: if nav is 220 next month,
the price goes up for
the shares
too
mircea_popescu: apple for
that matter carries billions in cash, so does berkshire, so do all powerful corps.
mircea_popescu: so yes, it will carry cash. not
that much, but in fact just about what's usually considered prudent in fiat.
mircea_popescu: except
this example is 1 pc and mpif has 5, and
this example has a shock 15% month, which mpif prolly won't ever have.
mike_c: yes. so
this goes back
to what i said about
the fund will end up carrying a huge cash balance
mircea_popescu: at
t=2,
the sole manager
that seemed
to have been making a 15% gain runs off with
the whole shebang.
mircea_popescu: on model B,
the spot gets stuck at 101.5 while
the capital of
the fund swells
to 50 btc, of which 10 allocated
to pc1.
mircea_popescu: now, on model A,
the spot
tracs
this, and
the share
trades at 115
mircea_popescu: at
t=1,
the sole manager seems
to be making a 15% gain
mircea_popescu: suppose vpif has 1 pc, with 10 btc. at
t=0,
the share goes for 100 satoshi.
jurov: so i can now undercut
the 21726 ask? but dunno if
that recovers selling fee
mircea_popescu: let me make an illustrative working model by what i mean by
the size breeds security
thing.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] [PAID] 2.52398268 BTC
to 8`031 shares, 31428 satoshi per share
jurov: it's not
the same :)
jurov: lol we have
to agree if it's /1.01 or *0.99
mike_c: it makes sense if
the fund is going
to return 50%
mircea_popescu: now, anyone
trying
to get into
this fund would first have
to
take a 45% haircut, as mp
tax.
mircea_popescu: suppose instead of 1.5% (or
the initial .88%) i charged 45%.
ThickAsThieves: which was probably a large point of
the "excercise" of it existing at all ;)
mike_c: (i don't
think
that's my objection)
mircea_popescu: so i guess your objection reduces
to
this not being a high risk/high reward enough for you
thing ?
mircea_popescu: sure, in principle
the later investments would attract lower margins
than
the earlier investments.
mircea_popescu: but listen.
this is an investment fund. its business is
to invest. if it does well, it would naturally receive more cash
to invest.
mike_c: the invested funds will grow.
that is worth a premium. cash will not grow. so
to keep
the premium very small, cash must dominate invested funds.
mike_c: that's what
the general manager wants.
mike_c: I'm going
to
try again. Funds can sell at a premium or a discount
to NAV. You are basically saying you won't allow
this above +/- 1.5%.
The only way I can see
to do
this is
to carry a massive cash balance in
the fund.
jurov: gotta go afk, hope nav won't reach 29000/1.01 in
the meantime :D
ThickAsThieves: so mpif has 200btc and
then sells more shares and gets another 200btc
ThickAsThieves: so when you say you 'deposit' btc
to issue more shares, where does
that go?
mike_c: that is my point. you are going
to keep issuing shares until
the ROI drops so low
that nobody is willing
to pay more
than 5% over nav
mike_c: ok, let's
try
this. so say
this block sells out (the 2nd 200 btc). and now you stop issuing shares.
mircea_popescu: jurov yes, went out of your bounds. i was at .88% before i enacted
the 1% collar for you.
jurov: you updated
the price
to 21726 ?
mircea_popescu: someone else wants
to pay over 15 pips or why do i issue more shares ?
mircea_popescu: he can't overpay by 6%, because i sell
to him at 101.5
mike_c: ok. NAV is 100 btc and
there are 100 shares. investor projects fund will make 10%
this year. He values
this highly and is
therefore willing
to pay 1.06 for a share.
jurov: nav *per share* stays
the same
ThickAsThieves: mike_c also note
that when new shares are released and purchased, it increases nav for everyone
mircea_popescu: first off, why would
this
thing "make money" other
than
through nav going up ?
ThickAsThieves: so i'll instigate further, what vetting does general manager do for bot software used by managers? basically enough rope
to hang
themselves?
mircea_popescu: mike_c
there are some
things conflated in
there i don't follow.
mike_c: i don't understand why you want
to keep
the price so close
to NAV.
This
thing is supposed
to make money.
that is worth something. if you issue shares until price drops
to close
to nav
than
the roi will be piddling.
mircea_popescu: anyway, mike_c et all : his job is not so bad, he gets a guaranteed 2.5% every
time he flips.
jurov: i don't say
the 29k ask is
there forever..just
till i dust off
the bot code
fluffypony: so when is someone going
to fork Altcoin and call it B1tcoin?
mircea_popescu: i won't issue shares unless we're looking at a 105% or something like
that.
mircea_popescu: that way you can always be overbid by users, should
they want
to.
mike_c: all
the pif managers are on
the honor system. i assume suspicious behaviors will result in execution by general manager.
jurov: say, i'd open another anon mpex account and
trade
the mpif with myself from
there
mike_c: i don't
think jurov is in a different situation
than anyone else. BingoBoingo could
trade
the markets on his own book, hanbot could place bets with her own money, etc.
ThickAsThieves: while you *could* implement programmatic ways
to do so, i'm not sure you could hide
the suspicious activity
totally