log☇︎
65600+ entries in 0.034s
asciilifeform: there actually exists an ada-flavoured variant, 'vdhl', but i never saw any win from it, loox rather like simply a moar verbose verilog. but! to be fair, that was 10y ago when i last dug, it was prior to asciilifeform's getting into adaism.
mircea_popescu: no dood i understand the differences.
asciilifeform: it compiles into a gate netlist, rather than sequence of instructions for vonneumann cpu.
asciilifeform: all the lines 'execute at once'
mircea_popescu: yes but how strong is that sorta ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they're sorta fundamentally immiscible, verilog is not a procedural/algorithmic lang
mircea_popescu: looks to me like about half of what we write, we'll end up baking eventually.
asciilifeform: it needs that 1 magick trick.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-26 16:08 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in re these lulz, at one point asciilifeform dug for 'anybody ever verilog-ified serpent?' and found a stack of 'papers'. any src ? mno. but plenty of 'discussion' of supposed 'implementation', in the traditional nadia henninger style .
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nope, as in fact noted in the head of thread, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-26#1866343 ☝︎
asciilifeform: theoretically in fact yes -- right here in the torture room
mircea_popescu: aaaanyways, this out of the way : do you actually have all the parts for this serpentdisk ?
asciilifeform: ( if anyffing, moar -- iron sepentron is only 'broken' if it actually is captured by enemy prior to serpent-pops )
mircea_popescu: there is that.
asciilifeform: and will point out, errybody who transmitted rsa-over-serpent in the 20yrs prior to $breakthrough is just as hosed as the folx who were using pocket iron serpentrons
mircea_popescu: but the other point is, yes, "erryone gotta bet". but also, "erryone has finite chips to bet with".
mircea_popescu: this is true.
asciilifeform: and yes i am moar willing to bet on rsa.
asciilifeform: errybody gotta take bets, sure. but must point out that there is no stiffness proof for rsa any moar than for voodoo-symmetrics.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i looked at the both of them things, what can i tell you.
mircea_popescu: nobody's walking anywhere with any rsa pills. now that i'm willing to die with.
asciilifeform: by same lights bright-kid can walk in with pill for rsa. then wat.
mircea_popescu: it comes for free with "here's generic method to attack all of them"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: then errybody who likes it, pulls their roms and writes in ~that~ , neh.
asciilifeform: (unlike the xl9572 , incidentally, which has baked-in eeprom )
mircea_popescu: yeah but suppose some bright kid walks into here one day with that item we all suspect is under a rock somewhere ☟︎
asciilifeform: ice40 eats config from a 8-legged spi rom thing, can socket it.
asciilifeform: incidentally , baking such box doesn't marry to serpent, can replace the ice40's feed rom whenever, with whatever one likes
mircea_popescu: in short, because this winding discussion risks overwhelming buffers, the salient points are a) that i'm not ready to go to war over serpent, it's a meh-maybe item ; b) that building our spearheads around items we're not willing to die for may be how the converse of http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=bitcoin+corrupts altogether. ☟︎
asciilifeform as errybody knows, never actually throws out iron!111 so haha!, still has mouse! was rhetorical device
mircea_popescu: (you did end up with a rewired computer on acct of throwing out that mouse, and you bemoan it daily, but soit.)
asciilifeform: $gedankenitem is just that, a 'dumb' peripheral
mircea_popescu: this is also true.
asciilifeform: simple peripherals are a thing
asciilifeform: dunno, i threw out my serial mouse, and didn't have to rewire entire house on acct of having discarded it
mircea_popescu: if they ever live, they live.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the problem with computers is that they all tend to be living organisms.
mircea_popescu: it seriously never fucking was meant to be gone over with a microscope, "oh satoshi how could you". fuck you i should wear a caliper attached to my pants in case i doodle in the restaurant also ?
asciilifeform: whereas it is not difficult to copy a block disk to a new one and burn the old
mircea_popescu: except, of course, if the underwear-on-head&over-pants crowd buys it.
asciilifeform: it aint end of the world if we bake sumthing and then retire it in favour of moar-correct replacement ( a la orig v )
mircea_popescu: say inca utters fatwah against block chiphers (ALSO DOESNT MATTER), now we'll go to war for the holy cause of niggers^H^Hblockchiphers ?
mircea_popescu: the poor people touching that shit (ie, that make it, or sell it, or w/e) are suddenly stuck bearing more weight than their rated limits.
mircea_popescu: so yes, i fully expect they'll buy, and then admire the hole we've dug ourselves in : five years down the road, say, as a mental experiment, we've sold 100k of these units, they're 90% of all we've sold, and well... they're still blockshiters. and what's next ? say i utter a fatah against block "ciphering", for good technical reasons or just because i'm insane -- IT DOESNT MATTER, and lo there'll be a lordship schism because
asciilifeform: ( dun mean they'll buy, could easily be engulfed by pantsuit lymphocytes and remain 'unhappened' , sure )
asciilifeform: they didn't line up to buy FG.. ( it dun scratch any heathen itches ) whereas this item potentially does scratch, as i understand
mircea_popescu: ie, they'll buy your used underwear to wear on head just as well. ☟︎
asciilifeform: also worth noting that it's an item heathens might actually buy.
mircea_popescu: but it seems, at least to my dumb eye of today, kinda going the wrong way.
mircea_popescu: i don't expect it'd be a bad thing to have. it's certainly way the fuck more than the whole "market" of the whole "security industry" slash barn.
asciilifeform: i was thinking moar along the lines of 'pistol that fires erry other round backwards is worse than a good knife'
mircea_popescu: if you're hungry, happy meal not worse than nothing (marginally), but you stiull won't get it.
asciilifeform: ( an iron rsatron would remove some of the need for fast / low-mem ciphration, but imho not all )
mircea_popescu: not worse than nothing, no.
asciilifeform: problem is that we're already using'em
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu's pov was 'symmetric iron disk is worse than nuffin cuz symmetric ciphers are hokum' -- i'll buy
mircea_popescu: i want serpent to take me out to dinner first! what!
asciilifeform: ( and his verdict was 'only about otp can talk about strength, errything else provably contains bits of key in ciphertext' )
asciilifeform: we have no concept of 'strength' that shannon didn't have in '47.
asciilifeform: but it doesn't. recall the orig symmetric thread.
asciilifeform: (and i strongly suspect that nobody will)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nobody's even yet invented an approach to investigating strength of symmetrics. (only weakness)
mircea_popescu: but as it stands, seems sending people to bring me a serpent hdd is not unlike sending people to bring be titted boars. why, can't use women ?
asciilifeform: it wins, theoretically, machine that can be locked/transported .
mircea_popescu: now, maybe after eulora's run for a half decade, and there's ACTUAL ~publshed~ research by ACTUAL humans re its strength, THEN i can revisit this discussion from a different hand
mircea_popescu: i agree with that, but im not sure symmetric cipher hdd wins that much.
asciilifeform: it is a kind of 'escherian', as mircea_popescu likes to describe, object.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i suspect that there will not be a 'civilized' symmetric cipher, i.e. item with less voodoo flavour to it than 'serpent'
asciilifeform: then it aint a fully volatile ciphertron tho. good % of the appeal, from my pov, was that it loses key if unplugged, and has no squirrelholes to somehow inadvertently retain key bits when off.
mircea_popescu: i am experimenting with serpent, and yes it's borne of that ancient discussion of ours, but i'm nowhere near-ready to bake it into "this is tmsr secure disk" ☟︎
asciilifeform: you want the key to vanish in <1ms when you hit the red button tho
mircea_popescu: if you don't like that, get an antifuse rom chip for it.
asciilifeform: yer gonna hammer in a 4096 bit key erry time you uncork the thing ?
mircea_popescu: but then could rsa!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: symmetric crypter doesn't win from massive arithmetron tho
asciilifeform: ( it is not meaningful to speak of 'bitness' of fpga per se, it's just a bag of blocks, typically 4-6bit LUTs plus some arithmetizers )
mircea_popescu: so you don't see my point when i say "well... disk and everytihng else line-crypto really needs tmsr-cryptochip first" ?
asciilifeform: as in, with 4096b ( really you want double of this, given how modexp works ) arithmetizer block in the fabric ?
asciilifeform: not even the $1k xilinx'en.
asciilifeform: funnily enuff i dun know of a single commercial/heathendom fpga that could house something of this size.
mircea_popescu: so listen, you actually see no merit in the "4096 byte crypto fpgas" ?
asciilifeform: there are heathen incarnations but they all suffer from the obvious idjicies afaik.
asciilifeform: this was actually mircea_popescu's idea, originally, it was orig part of the cardano cocktail.
asciilifeform: you have a box, that presents as e.g. usb drive on 'red' end, and eats a e.g. sd card on 'black' end, with a thing between the two that serpents and unserpents (how to key it, is a separate conversation, but it can be keyed sanely so long as it is done not from pc end )
mircea_popescu: tell this to me again ?
asciilifeform: imho disk cipherer is an item that could be made, a la FG, without rebuilding all of civilization, and not have to be rebaked later. supposing folx wanted it.
asciilifeform: lol from that pov no point in doing anyffing at all until we bake own ic at will , on atomic battleship..
mircea_popescu: how to get fg ? get tmsr-rsa
mircea_popescu: because then we'd have baked sane hardware for it.
asciilifeform: ( existing schemes resembling this are retarded primarily because they have luser enter key via pc kbd , and secondarily because they all married to aes )
asciilifeform: in fact you would specifically not want any aspect of it visible to the pc.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 22:14 asciilifeform: ( for the l0gz : from asciilifeform's pov, 'sane disk crypter' is an item that gets keyed via onboard keyboard jack, e.g. serpents, the attached disk, and unkeyed when powered off or at the closing of a contact attached to $whatever )
asciilifeform: it'd do its thing without involving os/fs
mircea_popescu: need tmsros/tmsrfs first, it's evbident by now
asciilifeform: ( why usb2sd chinesium, and not the usual 'usb microcontroller' ? cuz it has the 'mass storage' stack hairball in mask rom, and not reprogrammable... )
asciilifeform: serpent was bottleneck, in that gedankenbox.
asciilifeform: upstack -- ran into stack of these 'papers' when cleaning out crud, from 2yr ago when asciilifeform thought 'could make simple ciphered disk from usb2sd chip <-> ice40 <-> sdcard ' )
mircea_popescu: the behaviour is painting-indistinct. "yellow houses aren't the most fashionable". the discussion is house-building, not "yellow house making"
asciilifeform: mostly indian/chinese d00dz embedded in usg.academitardia, doin' their india thing.
asciilifeform: faux-fpga-worx aint exactly the most fashionable scamolas, we're looking at obscure, vs 'sexy', frauds.