574300+ entries in 0.386s
adlai: how do you know I haven't
told
them about him?
mircea_popescu: why are you
telling him about
them ?
tell
them about him.
nubbins`: if you want it spit instead of
typed
mircea_popescu: adlai what i don't get is : some group is
trying
to do something punkman already did, and we're using.
adlai: punkman: "Assuming each of
these
transactions includes a miner fee of 0.1 mbits (millibits),
this would cost
the proprietor 36.5 mbits a year."
adlai: punkman: it seems
to overlap,
to some degree,
the goals of
the deeds project
punkman: adlai, anything interesting about
that besided being lisp?
adlai: probably
the lizard schutzstaffel
mircea_popescu: nubbins` can you appreciate how damned rare it is, a few occurences over
tens of
thousands of LINES ?
jurov: !s oral
to:mircea_popescu << nanotube
this should be implemented
adlai: it'd be kinda cool
to work for nsa or whoever have !s over everything everybody has ever said
adlai won't look at
those until
they're on bloomberg (due
to customer demand)
adlai actually heard
the words "they said it in
the factory
tour, so it's probably
true" a few days ago
adlai: nubbins`: aka
the idiot
tax
nubbins`: the forum is riddled with stories of scammers preying on group buys by PMing people saying "hey its me, adlai`, plz
to send btc
to 1Scamblahblah"
mircea_popescu: and in so doing provides
the perfect pill against
the hearn idiocy of "let's import heardbleed into btc
nubbins`: address reuse also
thwarts phishing attempts
adlai: don't forget
to label your keys
too
nubbins` puts on a
t-shirt with his home address and
times when he will be away from his house,
then goes
to buy drugs w/ gold coins
nubbins`: but does
this really need
to be stated? :S
adlai: well it also gives
transparency, as long as
the people looking in
trust
that
the business uses only
those addresses
assbot: Logged on 01-12-2014 14:37:30; adlai: how? reuse
ties
two
transactions
together as having been signed by
the same entity.
this is OK for eg a business wanting
to operate
transparently, but less so for an individual wanting privacy
mircea_popescu: bitbet does
the same
thing, it reuses addresses liberally.
nubbins`: adlai
this is an argument against payout address reuse by individuals
adlai: ok, let's
take
the porsche
then cuz it's evidently not yours!
adlai: "kept
the change,
then paid address X later on"
mircea_popescu: once
this one use per address
thing goes away, "associated" is a lolzword.
adlai: "this address, which has previously been associated with you, made on of
those
transactions"
nubbins`: "but if all
the movies go into
the bin behind
the movie return slot, how will
they know who is returning
their movies?"
mircea_popescu: the key
to escaping responsibility if being one of a group
that did whatever.
the way
to implement
this in bitcoin is
through address reuse.
nubbins`: secnario 3: adlai and nubs each send a
tx
to 1mpexblahblah.
they send
their change wherever
they like.
mircea_popescu: "adlai, you are charged before
this court with high crimes of having derped on
the internet in a forbidden manner"
nubbins`: i
think you are both using different concepts of "reuse"
adlai: scenario 2 - alice creates a
transaction paying 1btc
to one address, and 1btc
to another. it's not
trivial
to
tell (just from
the
transactions) which address belongs
to whom.
adlai: Alice wants
to pay Bob a bitcoin. She has one address with 2btc, so she creates a
transaction sending bob one bitcoin, and one bitcoin change back
to her own address. it's
trivial
to
tell which bitcoin is alice's, and which is bob's.
adlai: how? reuse
ties
two
transactions
together as having been signed by
the same entity.
this is OK for eg a business wanting
to operate
transparently, but less so for an individual wanting privacy
☟︎ mircea_popescu: not reusing addresses is a bad idea ; reusing
them makes
them more ambiguous, which is good.
nubbins`: it makes
the use
thereof more ambiguous
adlai: too many negatives
there... you're saying
that reusing addresses makes
them more ambiguous?
mircea_popescu: anyway, as a general point : breaking
the address <-> user relation is
the most important
thing
to do for bitcoin's success on an individual level.
adlai: and when you're high enough, what's hashing if not a lookup in
the database of MATHEMATICS ITSELF
adlai suspected something of
the sort, but hasn't yet received his jump-to-conclusions mat
adlai: "recipient correctly hashes
to it" missing piece of
the puzzle
mircea_popescu: so it looks if it sent a mail for
that amount. if it does and
the recipient correctly hashes
to it, it sends it an email with
teh code.
mircea_popescu: you're aware
that when you make an order you get sent an email. right ?
adlai: server restarts for whatever reason, first
thing it sees on startup is a payment with some amount of dust. how does it know which customer was issued
that specific dust request, before
the reboot?
adlai: you don't need a database
to associate pending payments
to
their dust amount?
mircea_popescu: adlai anything can happen, but if you don't need a database you have less exposure
to
the
things
that can happen.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile using a single address has no cost associated, other
than you know, one particular string of eight digits as opposed
to another particular string of eight digits.
adlai: and
this can't happen with a shitty implementation (or user error) of discrimination based on dust-level change?
mircea_popescu: it also happens
to be
the wrong
thing. it makes it easier for ~everyone~, which is bad for user privacy. it requires more complexity, which costs money and opens
the door
to errors
adlai: one address per customer makes it easier
to
tell which payment comes from which customer
adlai mutters something about
the benefits of address reuse
adlai: "Please send exactly 0.01003556 BTC
to 1btcaddressblabla"
mircea_popescu: anyway,
that was
the van network, it was actuve for like a month.
mircea_popescu: kinda no practical way
to make
these not relate
to one another
mircea_popescu: or more likely, because
the
theme
they ripped came with
the icons.
adlai: suffice it
to say
that it's one of
the zillion worthless "bitcoin startups"
adlai refuses
to link
the site because
they don't deserve
the publicity of getting laughed at
adlai: why would you have a "featured in" section with images of newspapers, but no links
to
the actual article!?
adlai: first
time I didn't mention it, second
time I mentioned it but it was back by
the
time you asked "wonky how"
adlai: it has already been established
that you sabotage your own uptime
to
test our attentiveness...
adlai: they don't all display on
the main page, sometimes all do, sometimes one or
two missing. sometimes
they're missing from
the asset page
too.
adlai: mircea_popescu: graphs on mpex have been wonky
today
nubbins`: there are species
that still imitate
the appearance of
their once-favoured pollinators, now long extinct
adlai: or rather, he's only looking at one *psychoactive* plant, and he's looking at it from
the plant's perspective
nubbins`: bit of a wash with non-newtonian
tho hey?
adlai: to his credit, of all
the dogs I've met, he's got
the best grasp of newtonian mechanics
adlai: he puked a
turd a few days ago
nubbins`: not
too surprising from a creature
that will greedily eat feces without compunction
nubbins`: show me an animal (besides your dog)
that eats weed plants
nubbins`: fwiw i
think psychoactives are more denfense mechanisms
than anything
adlai: this is a bit of an extreme example, and some people would claim
that humans get something out of
the relationship, ie, psychoactive plants are symbiotic, not parasites
nubbins`: oh hey,
the EU banned 25I-NBOMe in september