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artifexd: signed messages allow someone to build an identity
mircea_popescu: artifexd hardly if that.
asciilifeform: please don't put it on life support, it needs to die
artifexd: I mean as in trust the message
artifexd: Trust in this case means that, as asciilifeform said, bob(today) is bob(next month)
asciilifeform: 'trust' is probably a word that will have to be retired, like phlogiston.
mircea_popescu: the reason this is even specced is to provide some sanity while everyone wastes their life in that ai quest.
artifexd: Trust doesn't mean that I take bob's word as gospel.
mircea_popescu: i am aware the inept consensus today is to think that technology can solve trust.
asciilifeform did not imagine that there were.
mircea_popescu: just like there are no mechanically generated random numbers.
mircea_popescu: with or without a key. there is no mechanical solution to trust
mircea_popescu: artifexd if you don't know bob, for all you know he's lying to you.
asciilifeform: in some truly perverse cases
artifexd: Part of the trust is that you can handle a key.
asciilifeform: arguing that this can be useful information
asciilifeform: you can still know that bob(today) is (or is not) same as bob(next month)
artifexd: I would have to have a direct connection to bob in order to believe anything with his fingerprint.
mircea_popescu: if you do not know bob, that assurance is meaningless anyway.
mircea_popescu: if you know bob, this is cryptographic.
artifexd: I would appreciate signed messages so that I could have some moderate assurance that bob is actually bob and not some asshole evil server.
asciilifeform: how is anything originating in my machine to leave my node without being signed ?
mircea_popescu: if you wish to elevate some chat to a contract, you directly can do that too.
asciilifeform: let's put it this way - if i wish for my words to successfully relay beyond my own node, i have to sign them with an ephemeral key
mircea_popescu: you can call bullshit in the gossipd as well.
artifexd: Simple: I would sign all my messages so that if you told me that I said something that wasn't signed, I could legitimately call bullshit.
mircea_popescu: i mean, i understand, "it's how it's done". we're here because the current paradigm is - quite fundamentally - broken.
artifexd: Why would I sign messages? Why would I appreciate messages that I receive to be signed?
mircea_popescu: and yes, unixtime timestamps.
artifexd: Actually, as fast as I type single second resolution timestamps would be enough.
asciilifeform: artifexd: next thing you know we're doing lamport clocks.
mircea_popescu: artifexd explain why you WOULD sign them.
artifexd: millisecond timestamps and a counter would do that too.
artifexd: Other than the argument that a signed "no" could be used for something malicious. Uh... It just means that you said no. It doesn't imply what you said no in response to. Just that you said no.
artifexd: I still haven't processed the wot part of the spec. I'm still trying to understand why you wouldn't sign the messages. It seems to be asking for evil actors.
asciilifeform: i will let this point prove itself, but was willing to argue for it to possibly save mircea_popescu and artifexd some unnecessary sweat
mircea_popescu: yes stan, if you wish to have a blockchain you will end up having to implement one.
asciilifeform: in the end, you end up with a poor reimplementation of 'blockchain' anyway
asciilifeform: (i.e., just as their own live wotgraph behaves)
asciilifeform: not so many ways to choose from if result is to behave functionally live
mircea_popescu: they can cache whichever way they wish/
asciilifeform: let's say that a fair number of node operators wish to cache. now they are stuck retaining (and transmitting, regularly!) a vast number of duplicate copies of many wotgraphs
mircea_popescu: so anyone's free to implement all the caching one wants.
asciilifeform: because things that are tedious and must be done manually, tend to not get done.
mircea_popescu: the less you figh entropy while still doing your job, the longer you'll live.
asciilifeform: i won't argue that wot moves ought to be retained for all eternity; but will say that some automatic caching is necessary
mircea_popescu: entropy is to be embraced. it's no surender when you manage to flow with it.
asciilifeform: well, in a sense they are; but we're really surrendering to entropy here far more than, imho, is necessary
mircea_popescu: are you sure those aren't simply the resuilts of "no more central server" ?
asciilifeform: to create temporary warps in the fabric of wot.
mircea_popescu: i still don't see there's a difference.
asciilifeform: to attempt to disrupt signal, locate mirrors
asciilifeform: right now this seems far easier than it will turn out to be on adult apparatus.
asciilifeform: where the change propagates.
mircea_popescu: that's why if right now i change a rating, the old one's gone.
mircea_popescu: the wot reflects wqhat things ARE. not what they were.
asciilifeform: or adjust his own graph-weights? (that would somewhat defeat the purpose of a wot, loses information)
asciilifeform: is he to host it on an 'obelisk' node which does nothing else but relay it ?
asciilifeform: assuming he wishes it to march on
asciilifeform: there are obvious wins to this approach. but opens the question of what, e.g., my brother, is to do with my wotgraph once my ship goes down.
mircea_popescu: leave the earth to better, later men.
mircea_popescu: once that's gone... main morte.
mircea_popescu: exactly like indicated. will exists for as long as the hand lives to enforce it
asciilifeform: whether father time should forget
mircea_popescu: i really do not wish to hear how much some long gone loser trusts whatever long gone scammer.
asciilifeform: this is actually an ancient debate in the maths-of-p2p-nets world
mircea_popescu: things change,you know. mayhap people you used to trust are nopw scammers
asciilifeform: in real time.
asciilifeform: probably quite a few folks. but the thing that distinguishes fermat from wot is that wot needs to be at least quasi-'hot' to really work as intended, imho.
asciilifeform: dead tree counts
mircea_popescu: but for as long as anyone gives a shit, they'll be there.
asciilifeform: let's ask - how many folks reading this have archived, e.g., the works of fermat ?
mircea_popescu: i don't think you will find the computerized means to ensure immutability.
mircea_popescu: anyone can archive them!
mircea_popescu: permanence is to be ensured by other means
mircea_popescu: chat is not an instrument to permanence. it's an instrument to chat.
mircea_popescu: by the same mechanism anything of anyone's kept around in the world : your friends have copies.
asciilifeform: someone manually copied it to a text file at some point ?
asciilifeform: by what mechanism are they kept around in the world ?
mircea_popescu: anything ? they're signed by you. they're, until anyone hears better, your position.
asciilifeform: and what can they do with this copy?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyone who saw the old ones has a copy!
mircea_popescu: artifexd thgat it has no central servers, for one.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they don't dood. how do they disappear ?
asciilifeform: i think it is ludicrous.
asciilifeform: the fact that my wot actions disappear when my node loses net
artifexd: So what is the value of this vice a private stock ircd with a gribble?
mircea_popescu: i still can't possibly see what flaw you perceive with the wot part of gossipd
asciilifeform: wot, i'd say, falls somewhere between (or floating far in the state-space) from currency or mere words
asciilifeform: ('the same' topologically! not mechanically, clearly)
asciilifeform: hawala is more or less the same, but implemented in the informal, mouth-to-ear way contemplated above.
asciilifeform: think of the advantage bitcoin has over hawala.
asciilifeform: or would have to station it shore-side somehow
asciilifeform: under the contemplated scheme, i may as well not bother to use wot then
mircea_popescu: for all you know it can even came in the shape of regular bitcoin txn.
mircea_popescu: for all you know some validly signed material from 2012 satoshi emerges tomorrow. tis what it is.
mircea_popescu: very theoretical possibility, as "the last words" are hard to fake online.
asciilifeform: why not cut straight to chase.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and then we get medieval-style rediscoveries of 'the latter gospel of mircea'
mircea_popescu: it's as good as current thing, except better cuz signed.