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decimation: 'the thing' I mean
asciilifeform thought that this was well-known
decimation: lol theremin was a zek when he 'invented' it
asciilifeform: !s theremin
asciilifeform: decimation: the original 'rfid', yes
assbot: The Thing (listening device) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1ADxuqQ )
decimation: asciilifeform: like the 'soviet embassy bug': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the price for this, of course, is immutability :)
asciilifeform: in the sense of the signal in one direction being a modified, phase-shifted version of the continuous signal in the other.
decimation: if a receiver is capable of swallowing large power without desensitization, one can listen while one transmits arbitrarily
asciilifeform: that is, can pass back-n-forth in something resembling 'real time'
asciilifeform: 'two way' would refer to, e.g., a microwave horn link between two montain top fortresses
mircea_popescu: just saying, kind of an engineering convention. no point in seeing too much metaphysics behind it
asciilifeform: 'one way' in the customary (numbers-station-to-spies) sense
decimation: yes, except physics categorizes these things naturally, in terms of propagation
mircea_popescu: not anymore than true love,anyway.
asciilifeform: decimation: i'd classify all 'one way radio' as a single category for purpose of the discussion re: algorithmic basics.
decimation: asciilifeform: medium could also be morse code, slowed down by a factor of 100, in order to achieve redundancy and low bandwidth http://www.w0ch.net/qrss/qrss.htm
adlai is thinking too much like his code
adlai: what about mpex needs tcp?
asciilifeform: mark twain's cat'n'rat system, lol
asciilifeform: console can be connected to tcp or to radio set on valves
mircea_popescu: no, that;'s bitbet.
asciilifeform: i imagine mpex as consisting of three gurlz, in a box, in shifts, and a console.
adlai: I guess it's an example of something which could work equally well over udp, and just happens to use tcp for convenience
asciilifeform: proving the point that stateless, medium-agnostic 'connectionless' comms are the only solid way to go.
asciilifeform: mpex was not the inspiration for my version of the concept, but was the impetus for my coming to believe that it is buildable and worth confessing to people about
mircea_popescu: one could say that, and be uncharitable.
adlai . o ( one could say that mpex simulates udp on top of tcp )
asciilifeform: adlai: the way i understand it, we have at least three people right here who came up with very similar - but different in important respects - attempted solutions.
adlai: sure, this "ircd" thingy is just the latest in an uncoordinated herd of attempts to attack this same general problem
asciilifeform: adlai: must note that it is originally entirely unrelated to mircea_popescu and artifexd's project
decimation: the interent, as exists, is like tor - in the sense that the group is trying to solve the individual's problem
asciilifeform: adlai: described it at some length in #b-a at various points in the past month; also in a few comments on mircea_popescu's site.
mircea_popescu: yes, well, this is more a function of louis than anything.
adlai: is this udp-over-wot concept "too long to fit in the margin", or have you sketched something about about it somewhere?
asciilifeform: 'If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.' (richilieu)
decimation: but I do see the problem of broadcasting signed messages everywhere
asciilifeform does not have a battlefield-ready apparatus to offer
mircea_popescu: decimation how was the experience ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i think i read this.
asciilifeform: (quite pertinent to this evening's thread)
adlai: what's this?
asciilifeform is about to sleep, and recommends to friends also about to sleep, to read 'petrified world.'
mircea_popescu: decimation did you actually read the whole discussion ?
mircea_popescu: not before tho.
mircea_popescu: yes, once that happens, they could.
mircea_popescu: ah ah that's what you mean.
decimation: I don't see why one couldn't route ircd on top of ascii's udp-wot-internet
asciilifeform: (nor an immediate transposability to shortwave/message-in-bottle)
asciilifeform: you will -never- get single-packet friend-or-foe with tcp or tcp-like apparatus.
asciilifeform happens to be a crackpot specializing in the subject of 'abstractions being interchangeably paperable over is a mega-lie, foundations matter forever'
decimation: this was from a paper that was written by folks who designed early 80's network protocols
mircea_popescu: which is the low level function ?
mircea_popescu: i might be especially thick, but i don't actually understand what decimation is saying.
mircea_popescu: and impertinent at the same time!
asciilifeform: good example of clumsy and very threadbare attempt at 'retrofit'
assbot: Logged on 07-01-2015 01:22:05; asciilifeform: with udp, you can make the 'friend or foe?' decision upon receipt of a single (!) packet.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform explain transsexuals then.
asciilifeform: it is a grave misconception that 'anything can be retrofitted.'
asciilifeform: decimation: that particular point of contention was about a kind of thing not readily retrofitted.
decimation: it occurs to me that one ought not design low level features into a communication system unless absolutely necessary
mircea_popescu: (i mean, as opposed to soft. it's not like twitter, follow X. it's the opposite, "send to X")
mircea_popescu: artifexd nevertheless, since output is always encrypted to a key,
asciilifeform believes the future to hold many one-way links
mircea_popescu: you don't really need to hear anything back from anyone.
mircea_popescu: artifexd you will notice the spec is broadcast-oriented.
asciilifeform: artifexd: for sufficiently simple quanta, it is very easy to 'verify received' without duplicating all the cruft of tcp.
artifexd: If you want a back and forth connection, you end up duplicating tcp yourself.
artifexd: upd is trivial for sending information if you don't care if they received it
mircea_popescu: tcp is hard to employ usefully.
asciilifeform: udp is trivial!
mircea_popescu: im not entirely sure it is actually to any purpose important.
mircea_popescu: so im guessing this is going to be forced by the medium.
mircea_popescu: more importantly, connections on the internet don't work unilaterally.
artifexd: We have to both agree to trust each other.
mircea_popescu: so did the pets peeking in online. but no.
artifexd: "How many times do I have to explain this shit!"
mircea_popescu: i must say, incidentally, i thoroughly enjoyed this discussion.
asciilifeform: ah that.
mircea_popescu: "group is more important than individual"
asciilifeform: which, in this context, place ?
mircea_popescu: all born the same stupid place.
mircea_popescu: which is how humanity managed to inch its way to this sad time when it's about to kill itself a thousand different ways
asciilifeform: like bridge truss.
mircea_popescu: this is specifically because, historically, the individual is more important than the group
asciilifeform: it is the inevitable construction that stands.
mircea_popescu: historically, the closer a relation, the more direct.
asciilifeform: (i dare suggest that a node be referred to as 'cell', for extra lulz)
asciilifeform: gossipd proposes a scheme more akin to the traditional 'cell' organizations of revolutions, etc
mircea_popescu: now apply the same analysis to gossipd.
asciilifeform: well yes. nsa comes inevitably in because you are trusting three strangers whom you know nothing about, to form the circuit.
asciilifeform: (e.g., i may know that it is a machine at ip p.q.r.s with rsa pubkey K)
mircea_popescu: once that's in there, of course fucking nsa.
mircea_popescu: and you wish to know why it is broken by design ?
mircea_popescu: so the fundamental statement is "the group is more important than the individual"
asciilifeform: thereby obscuring the existence of the conversation, within certain limits.
asciilifeform: well, 'platonic tor' is simply that a large number of people agree to 'play non-broken telephone' between me and a destination.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform even the platonic.
mircea_popescu: wheras as proposed, gossipd makes the enemy outright impossible.