531000+ entries in 0.346s
mike_c: danielpbarron: but
this problem is solved by weekly home game. online poker is different.
danielpbarron: if you suspect someone is cheating, do you want
to play with
them?
dignork: mike_c: you don't have
to neg-rate
them, just abn
them from poker site
mike_c: i don't know
that wot solves it all. so we start neg-rating on suspicion of bot use?
danielpbarron: "if
the pre-req for chatting on irc is being in
the WoT,
the chat is gonna suck"
dignork: BingoBoingo:
they don't, so you have one dude faking bot's responses for 10s of
them.
mike_c: looks no different from
the nuts who don't use bots and multi-table ridiculously
mike_c: solvable problem. run 50 bots and pay somebody
to sit and chat
BingoBoingo: Anyways
the problem with bots in poker is
they don't respond appropriately when you are drinking and
talking shit at
the
table
danielpbarron: i only play with people I know, or someone i
trust knows
danielpbarron: well now i feel like a dick for having recommended people play only heads up
to prevent collusion
nubbins`: if
the pre-req for playing is being in
the WoT,
the games are gonna suck
mike_c: and why does nobody play no-limit headsup anymore? and limit? because of
this.
mircea_popescu: mike_c also,
they play limit headsup, which... nobody plays.
danielpbarron: all of
this is a moot point anyway if
the pre-requisite for playing is being in
the WoT
mike_c: because
that would be interesting.
mike_c: but,
this argument aside,
the point of bringing it up - does your solution handle
the bot problem?
mircea_popescu: mike_c a bot
that knows
the distribution
tables really well has an edge. sure.
mike_c: a bot's winrate can be bumped up by collusion, but it is far from
the biggest factor in its success or failure
danielpbarron: for
the sake of argument, say heads up is broken; no heads up!
mike_c: you
think you can beat it,
there are machines in vegas where you can play against it for real money
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron “We define a game
to be essentially solved if a lifetime of play is unable
to statistically differentiate it from being solved at 95% confidence,”
mike_c: you going
to beat a bot at
tic-tac-toe because you know its algorithm?
mike_c: danielpbarron: no.
that's what solved means.
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: gladly suck our cock if only we a) didn't bang hotties and b) validated
their self-hottie delusions. <<
These are usually
the girls who start false accusing despite being squelched.
mike_c: what's
the emoticon for sticking a
tongue out?
mircea_popescu: but if you want a statistical model, play with someone like
this :
three cards face up,
two in
the hole for you,
two in
the hole for
them, a
ten card window for
them you can't see.
mike_c: that is not what makes bots win. it simply gives bots a small bump over what
their skill would be otherwise.
mircea_popescu: mike_c collusion and bots are different
topics. however, because collusion offers a small but systematic bonus, it's what makes bots always win. in
the .5
to 1.5% range, depending.
mike_c: because my whole point was bots are
the problem, not collusion.
nubbins`: but
they also didn't hash passwords, instead opting
to store
them in plain
text
nubbins`: i used
to work for a national insurance company, every corporate machine was a lenovo
mike_c: and also
to be clear, i am
talking about collusion, not bots.
mircea_popescu: this is like asking "who sent
this bitcoin
transaction"
mike_c: to be clear, are you
the site operator or just some other player running
these bots?
mike_c: Yeah, exactly. so we're
talking about one
table with me and 5 of your stupid bots colluding.
dignork eagerly waits for
the day when
there will be a discovery on diddles bios on Lenovo
mircea_popescu: if you have 500 human players, you're running 500
tables, with a
total of 3k "players"
mike_c: then who
the fuck is it making money off of?
nubbins`: i
taught my roomie about CAs yesterday using
them as an example
mike_c: 80 because
that's a common number of hands per hour at online
mircea_popescu: why "avg" ? you always fill
the
table. why "80" ? bot plays all
the
tables. all of
them.
mike_c: colluders are paying $66 an hour
to play at a $1/$2 no-limit game
mike_c: figure 80 hands/hour, avg $1 cap, 6 players at
table (5 colluding)
dignork: danielpbarron: me either, but most players assume
that bots are evil, hence all
this bot-hunting madness
☟︎ danielpbarron: if someone's in
the WoT and
they want a bot
to play for
them, I say go for it
nubbins`: this is one of
the nicer pieces of kit i've picked up over years of outdoorsyness:
danielpbarron: dignork, i don't see what
the problem is with a bot
that doesn't collude
dignork: danielpbarron: most bots do not collude -
they make more money on
the long run by playing with fish on small stakes. But yes,
theoretically
they could collude. It's just
they are more profitable when
they are not.
mircea_popescu: unless
they were looking at making an offline site o.O
mike_c: ok, so we're discussing online. where
the profit margins and
the rake are smaller
mike_c: No, I'm not.
the profit margins both live and online are significantly affected by rake
mircea_popescu: live rake is not going
to have 6 man collusion either, is it!
mike_c: Live rake is much higher
than online.
dignork: mike_c: collusion is insignificat for a poker shop in financial means, it's a PR problem when discovered, and consequently
the lose players/source of income.
mircea_popescu: yes, i pay more rake.
that's
there but not really significant.
mike_c: you are paying 6x
the blinds I am
mike_c: you have
to put up much more money
though
mircea_popescu: i guess we go at
this
the other way
then : we play poker, you see five +
two cards, i see five +
twelve cards.
danielpbarron: i'll gladly play against non-colluding bots any day; a bot can't out-bluff a real person;
the whole point in having bots is
that
they share info with each other
danielpbarron: if
the bots aren't colluding
then it's not an issue
mike_c: i have
thought. i have played a lot of poker in my
time.
ben_vulpes: technology gets worse over
time not better
mircea_popescu: mike_c you jus' sayin' or you actually
thought about
this ?
mike_c: most collusion isn't as profitable as one might
think (if at all)
mircea_popescu: it's been a decent replacement for
teflon for a while now.
mike_c: collusion-free poker is nice, but I
think bots are more
the problem.
ben_vulpes: shit's going
to nuke my
testes somehow, right?
ben_vulpes: is anyone familiar with
these white "ceramic" "nonstick" pans?
danielpbarron: i
think i still have
the code lying around somewhere; i'll
try
to find it
danielpbarron: it would scramble lines based on how many words you had already seen from
that player
danielpbarron: i also coded a
thing
that would simulate players having
to learn each other's language by speaking
to each other
to build up understanding; had
the effect where a group of friends could
talk in long sentences
that strangers couldn't understand; strangers would have
to
talk in very short lines like "yes" "no" "here" in order
to understand each other
ben_vulpes: danielpbarron: and you avoided letting it
trap you
mircea_popescu: Joseph Bekken was arrested and jailed on charged of attempted misuse of public funds, attempted procurement of prostitution, burglary, using a computer in a scheme
to defraud and bribery."
mircea_popescu: "The financial aid director at North Idaho College was arrested
this month and fired for offering
to
trade scholarships for sex with a student. However,
the student wasn't real.
mircea_popescu: that guy was probably doing
them a favour, whoever
they were.
danielpbarron: fwiw, i have actually coded
things
that worked before; I made my own minecraft plugin
that used a database
to keep
track of credit/debt between players when
they
took items from chests / it broke when an update
totally revamped
the inventory control system and I abandoned it / also, it was java :/
ben_vulpes: the curve is full of
these oom steps up in complexity
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski no but he has a point. making an irc bot excellent coding exercise. i agree, good 1st
time
thing for intelligent person.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and
then when we start hiring, we hire slaves, like anyone hiring. and
then
the slave-born cry and whine
that "oh look, bitcoin's no better".
pete_dushenski: if it
takes me 5 years
to learn how
to code, by golly i'll do it