asciilifeform: the other thing about the whole 'let's piss on the bitcoin protocol and let blockchain move the clock' thing is that it does ~NOT~ guarantee the required accuracy!

asciilifeform: (...and then someone has to set the fucking clocks and wrap them back in the crate? who will it be? you? me? mircea_popescu?)

asciilifeform: but again, having this done would not only multiply the cost of the unit but add many times its cost in logistics to wherever this is done and then again to the destination.

asciilifeform: incidentally, there is even an empty landing pad inside for rtc

asciilifeform: so much as opening pogo and touching inside multiplies the cost of the operation.

asciilifeform: we just don't have the option to use any of them.

asciilifeform: there is ~no shortage~ of parts for this

asciilifeform: adding so much as a shoelace to pogo would multiply the cost.

asciilifeform: but we haven't this option.

asciilifeform: i'd put an oven oscillator in there, and 50 years of lithium battery, sure

asciilifeform: you go to war with the pogo you have, not the pogo you wish you had, to borrow a bushism

asciilifeform: button that does what ?

asciilifeform: it has to plug into the wall and go!

asciilifeform: if you set the clock based on what is happening on the bitcoin network in any way, you are then in a state of sin.

asciilifeform: and breaking it this way is certain to have unforeseen effects

asciilifeform: but it is screamingly apparent from the design

asciilifeform: i didn't design the thing

asciilifeform: and never the reverse

asciilifeform: the point which i am trying - and apparently failing - to make, is that the bitcoin protocol as we know it requires time to be an invariant, by which blocks are judged

asciilifeform: the thing is supposed to be solidly automatic.

asciilifeform: decimation: once we are in the position of trying to 'identify bullshit' we're lost in the sea.

asciilifeform: i can feed you easy blocks from the past and move the average wherever i want

asciilifeform: please think about it

asciilifeform: if you allow it to ever move the rtc at all!

asciilifeform: if you allow purported blocks to set your rtc, you are setting yourself up for a rewind attack

asciilifeform: and so genesis block is more than 2h in the future

asciilifeform: because clock thinks it is 1969

asciilifeform: decimation: presently, by definition they cannot verify

asciilifeform: but has no notion whatsoever of political time on power-up

asciilifeform: pogo is able to keep time, in the relative sense, similar to how msdos did (periodic interrupt)

asciilifeform: whereas we have no means of agreeing on the time.

asciilifeform: rather than clocks

asciilifeform: say i feed your pogo the entire sequence of blocks 0,5000 with the period times. now it believes that it's 2009 ?

asciilifeform: must understand, time is presently a criterion in whether a block is a block

asciilifeform: transmitted just for the purpose of fucking with pogo

asciilifeform: decimation: the blocks can be 'time travelers'

asciilifeform: and to the extent bitcoind depends on it, it is broken by design.

asciilifeform: network time is an extremely fragile political fiction

asciilifeform: my point here is that the time thing ~will~ have to be solved, because it is by far the most comically usg-dependent aspect of bitcoin

asciilifeform: which is why it only happens to crackpot altcoins

asciilifeform: punkman: this works only if you are the world champion by an unreasonable margin

asciilifeform: (miners want to fuck up other miners more than they wish to do anything else, it turns out)

asciilifeform: as for why anyone would willingly move the target by solving a harder-than-required one - this ought to be obvious

asciilifeform: (how to make this recurse correctly is an exercise for the reader)

asciilifeform: so target would move once sufficient work matches a harder target

asciilifeform: rather than time or block count

asciilifeform: punkman: the solution, i now realize, is difficulty which ratchets based on actual mass of work

asciilifeform: punkman: for what do you need the infinite growth ?

asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190768 << the solution is 'don't be poor.' ☝︎

asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190971 << absolutely not. the most 'connected' node of the graph ought to live in the center of field of vision, and so forth ☝︎

asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190969 << i would very much like to hear why ! ☝︎

asciilifeform: say, you get n blocks at a given target, and then the bit slides.

asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190921 << precisely. what i was suggesting is to monotonically move the target 'harder'. ☝︎

asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190911 << perhaps i should explain. dude was an odious, moralizing twerp, who played the 'holier than thou' game for ages. ru law requires ministers to declare income. he declared perhaps 1% of it. nailed fair and square. and if there is some way for him to have made that dough other than straight bribery, monkeys will fly from my arse. ☝︎

asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190906 << if i can't see how it made it, and repeat the process, it is useless to me ☝︎

asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190896 << by far the most interesting thing here is that every cpp programmer needs this. and it is available from dozens of vendors, as winblowz turdware of course. because ~nobody else uses cpp~ for anything ☝︎

asciilifeform: 'gets its time from the most recent block it accepts' is a logical impossibility given the current algo for 'accept'

asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190838 << pogo has to work when plugged into the wall! what 'switch' ?!! and you cannot learn ~anything~ about the current time from a purported block. this is circular logic!1111 block is only valid ~if~ within 2h of current time. any backflow can and will result in enemies 'nudging' the time ☝︎