445500+ entries in 0.288s
ascii_field: when you ~actually~ (vs. academitard-pretend) nail something down -
that is a reduction in complexity.
mircea_popescu: you know
the recourse
to complexity is an academic habit.
mircea_popescu: anyway,
took down (as folklore) by one alexandru donici in
the 1800s
mircea_popescu: you are aware of
the complexity
that introduces in say an attempt at mathematical provability re
the entire shenanigan ?
ascii_field: (presently, it is a scalar; but doesn't have
to be)
ascii_field: another suggestion: vectorize
the difficulty
ascii_field: methinks we're at
the point here where one could actually build a mathematical
thing
mircea_popescu: oinly
to discover
that indeed such devils do exist. him.
mircea_popescu: you know, when
the holy paladin marches into
the forest
to kill
the unseen devils
that have been upsetting
the natural order of
the land
mircea_popescu: depends how you define it, but
there's also
the problem of "you're
the lizard, bob."
ascii_field: could one design a system where fucking
the lizards is always +ev ?
mircea_popescu: not sure
that can be arranged. prolly can be made
to appear it was arranged, but...
mircea_popescu: not
that bitcoin doesn't centralize, a little. but
this is criminal.
ascii_field: gotta have
the prisoner's dilemma come out against it
mircea_popescu: because it is game
theoretically advantageous
to have a central scheduler.
ascii_field: where
there is a 'tug of war' among
top contenders for pulling difficulty up
mircea_popescu: i am maybe not
the first but definitely not
the last
to admit when satoshi did
the dumb. nevertheless, here he did no such
thing.
there is no alternative known
to literature, and you can't fault a man for not coming up with a novel star.
ascii_field: incidentally,
the answer, if it exists
to be found, probably involves what fuller might've labeled 'tensegrity'
mircea_popescu: back at sad farm,
there's really little we can do with
the bitcoin as it is, other
than acquiesce
to
the filth of human notions of
time.
ascii_field: i agree,
this is very much a 'go, find' rather
than 'sure
to be found'
ascii_field: perhaps i will need more ice cream
to work
through
this one
ascii_field: not
that i seriously disagree with mircea_popescu's intuition, but it is not obviously clear
to me
that we're speaking of a perpetuum mobile
mircea_popescu: do not let me stand in between you and greatness. but until
the day you shit out
that magic, it's no magic
time.
mircea_popescu: not so negotiable. anyway, you DO need
the sampling, and
that fucks it all up
ascii_field: recall, we are
thinking of all possible formulations
ascii_field: the 'double'
thing is negotiable, potentially
mircea_popescu: moreover,
this retarded version of farming is more like, "Farming done by bacteria colony. doubles every
time
there's food."
mircea_popescu: you're basically proposing we do a "your rent is a
tenth of your income or more, forever. and you play
the lottery daily."
mircea_popescu: the chance
to die approaches infinity much before you even get a
third halving
ascii_field: it is rather reminiscent of 'there is nonzero chance for you
to fall
through
the floor'
ascii_field: for so long as
the 'lucky strikes' can't nudge
too far
ascii_field: say, anyone who can hash faster
than strictly required
to win
the race, ends up pushing
the
target
towards hardness
mircea_popescu: there is no way
to distinguish between a block mined at difficulty x
that came out with 9 leading zeroes and a block mined at difficulty 1
that came out randomly with
that many zeroes.
mircea_popescu: didja miss
the line where i said you can't have a statistical sample of one ?
mircea_popescu: anyway.
the problem of
time (as you rightly observe) is a larger problem
than anything bitcoin solves
mircea_popescu: yes i realise. but at least
these are our evil nodes rather
than obama's evil nodes.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: you realize
that is exactly how
the ntp nodes with which we're ddosed work
mircea_popescu: ok, how about
this alternative : put a special
time server on
the pogo itself, have
the pogo sync its
time from
the list of approved upstream sources.
jurov: also
there is my doubt of finding 5000 or how many ppl
that won't mind pogo
trampling upon
their connection and likely inviting attacks
ascii_field: and i still
think
that dependence on political
time is a serious flaw in bitcoin proper
ascii_field: that
this was a constraint, i warned from day 1
mircea_popescu: it is not your fault, or mine, or his,
that "the
time" does not come engraved in
the wave fucntion you know.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: may as well ship a pc
then!
ascii_field: (anything requiring
the pogo keeper
to have hands and brain is not a solution)
mircea_popescu: yes, but you didn't care much for it. usb
timer dongle
thinger
ascii_field: no one else has proposed anything like a
third
ascii_field: so far
there appear
to be just
these
two solutions
mircea_popescu: anyway, not
that i'm saying
this must be done or anything. but i do not
think it'd be
the end of
the world if it has
to be.
mircea_popescu: the only correct solution
to
the problems of humanity is killing all
the people.
ascii_field: this
terrible kludge would probably go well with jurov's
mircea_popescu: it's not
that i don't appreciate your intellectual purity. it's merely
that
things must be made as correct as possible and no correcter
than
that.
ascii_field: thing is, i can easily see
these becoming 99% of
the relay mass
mircea_popescu: so yes,
the rifle regiment wouldn't survive cavalry charge from
the side. alrighty
then, put
them on a hillltop.
mircea_popescu: ascii_field anyway, mind
that pogos are not intended
to be
THE ONLY solution
to relaying.
they are just supposed
to be a
type of solution.
jurov: pogo will eventually reorganize, and reset
the
time back
to where
the for started
ascii_field: jurov: mainly in
that it affects pogos and nobody else
jurov: how is
the
timing attack different from normal orphans?
mircea_popescu: just pointing out
that drums were good enough for marching and not good enough for precision bomb strike
ascii_field: unless
the crowd is in a gasenwagen and behaves like a solid
ascii_field: mircea_popescu:
the speed of
the sound of
the drum is negligible in comparison
to
the speed at which push wave propagates
through a crowd
mircea_popescu: ie, exactly like drummers (if you
think about it, drummers are EXACTLY each guy pushing
the other, sound has a speed, and it pushes ears)
ascii_field: so now miners get
to move pogo clocks around collectively.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 15:02:31; asciilifeform: i will leave
this with one more analogy: why did marching armies use drummers, instead of having each man push
the next fellow, like in a crowded
train ?
mircea_popescu: in a year he has
to replace a million btc worth of blocks.
mircea_popescu: yes.
the only way
this attack would work is with a major chain replacement investment.
ascii_field: you are now four hours, say, behind
the actual earth
time
ascii_field: hitler uses his week while your node was in
the crate
to re-mine
the blocks from
the last place you have on disk, with minimal plausible monotonically stepping
time deltas
mircea_popescu: to answer your q : hitler's block is rejected on
the basis
that it's
too far off from
the last block pogo accepted.