294600+ entries in 2.129s
fractal: jurov: thats totally wrong. thats like saying
a BFL single is
a UNIT if they ship 2 to make up for it
mircea_popescu: but seriously, if i buy
a laptop, which comes as two item (power supply + laptop) am i buying one or two units ?
fractal: I think most people, looking at
a picture would call 1 thing
a UNIT, and 2 things multiple UNITS
mircea_popescu: bobbabad_ it's not
a comeback. it's an attempt to help you start on the work of self-education. do try and answer the question, it's important.
Anduck: the unit that
a customer has bought
kleeck: Yes. Let's argue over what
a "mining unit" really means. :D
Bunnyh: fractal: if the yes/no decision comes to that issue, it will be
a really tough call
mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves it's
a problem this, getting language to work for the purpose of communication in
a novel space.
Bunnyh: fractal: i don't really have
a good opinion on how to decide, if they did deliver 400GH for everyone who ordered 400GH, and the total hardware doesn't consume more power than advertised (but would consist of more than 1 master board with 16 hashing boards)
fractal: Anduck: The bet says what the bet says. if no 400Gh device is delivered, the bet is
a NO
Anduck: and 5 orders delivered.. it should be
a yes,then
fractal: Bunnyh: if the 400Gh doesn't actaully hit 400Gh, would you say that the unit did not meet performance ? (Then , if the company was nice and sent
a refund, or more hardware, would it change the fact that the 400Gh unit didn't hit performance hashrate" ?
bobbabad_: seriously wtf is wrong with mpoe-pr? what
a fucking assclown
Anduck: it's been proven that
a mining card does meet the advertised performance..
fractal: mircea_popescu: which I think would make it
a conflict of intrest for him to debate it -- I think 3rd parties who are neutral should strictly look at the language -- otherwise he can just say 'oh, thats not what i meant!' and fuck over the NO bets ;(
Bunnyh: i see 3 requirements:
a) they must ship both kinds of devices (25G and 400G) before 1st. b) both kinds of devices must meet power/speed requirements. c) 5 deliveries confirmed (this req. doesn't specify which kind of devices)
fractal: Anduck: Honestly, it seems to me like you wrote
a vague bet, that other people have read totally differently, and you're trying to change 'what you meant' .... its not fair man, seriously.
mircea_popescu: jborkl re the wording : any time one sees
a badly worded bet they can make
a better worded one, which at least theoretically would create an advantage for his bet over the old bet and people would flock there.
Anduck: mircea_popescu: how about if
a 400gh unit was shipped this week but not delivered?
ThickAsThieves: "Further to the above, TradeFortress has announced that Coinlenders is closing - and that the current site is only
a demo, but one which has the same functionality as
a real site would (
a similarish approach to BTC-TC's "it's just
a game" stance - though actually
a worse one from an investor's perspective)."
fractal: Anduck: of course not -- if they dont ship
a 400Gh order they are just like BFL
fractal: Forget about the 400Gh being shipped -- the issue is what defines
a 'UNIT' as advertised and meeting performance specs
jurov: if they failed to sell 400gh then..well it's
a failure
mircea_popescu: jborkl the rationale is that since there's an
A and
a B in the bet, and 5 proofs, you want those 5 proofs rto include both
A and B
mircea_popescu: this is an important point to remember : you NEVER bet on
a bet such that you can't neutralize it later should you need to.
jborkl: and to clarify I do not have
a order or
a bet
Anduck: mircea_popescu: true. but we don't know was the first orders (that were shipped this week) including
a 400gh miner. but it's proven that it does work if one actually bought one
Anduck: mircea_popescu: there is an example of 400 ghash unit but it was
a demo, not delivered unit. but that can be delivered if anyone bought it. it's the same m-boards and h-boards.. just enough of them to make the hashrate of 400gh
fractal: the problem here I think is what is
a 'UNIT' --- this is what we're debating ;)
fractal: jborkl: I asked mircea_popescu this question , in the logs he said he'd like to see proof of
a 400Gh unit as well as
a 25Gh unit ... i dont have logs tho
jborkl: What if no one ordered
a 400?
fractal: jurov: it's not just 400Gh being shipped --- its 400Gh in
a single unit as advertised -- if they ship more hardware to make it up for it -- its because performance wasn't met
fractal: Anduck: according to the wording its totally not fair for 2 M-boards or multiple hardware considered
a 400gh 'unit' since the company advertised
a 400Gh unit as "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"" --- to be honest -- the vagureness of the langugage makes it unfair for either side to win or lose --
Anduck: there actually was weeks ago
a 400gh rig built from these h-boards
fractal: the other thing i'm worried about is punin sending pictures to
a forum user and paying them to post
a 400Gh unit saying its hashing at 400Gh -- rumour has it punin made the 10BTC yes bet
Anduck: jurov: what do you think, does it require
a delivery of 400 gh unit?
fractal: I only made the bet based on what I say on the bitfury website -- that
a 400Gh unit was "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"
fractal: jurov: for most objective people
a unit is
a single device and 'UNITS' are multiple
fractal: jurov: it can't be regarless of h-boards because thats not what was advertised on
a performance basis -- "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"
fractal: I'm trying to make
a unit what was advertised -- 1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips
Anduck: you're just trying to make "unit" be
a "h-board"
fractal: This will give me
a headache
Anduck: and is there
a fee or something for that
fractal: Anduck: to be honest -- i'd rather cancel the bet then have
a long forum discussion that takes hours of debate over the next few days -- if you'd agree... otherwise I'll have to clear my schedule ;)
fractal: jurov: there needs to be
a 400Gh UNIT -- which doesn't exist
jborkl: but I don't get
a vote
fractal: Anduck: The best doesn't say 'If the 400Gh miner only mines at 380Gh' they can ship more hardware and its
a yes
Anduck: fractal: that was the advertised hardware... the bet wasn't about advertised hardware. it was about advertised performance. 400gh for 400 watts. people ordered
a kit which produces that and they get what they ordered
jurov: i think if they don't ship more boards as
a kit to fullfill the 400gh, then it's clearly false
mircea_popescu: mpoe-pr "lol yknow eventually there's gonna bet
a channel dedicated to debating bitbet wording"
fractal: Anduck:
A 400Gh unit with "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" was advertised
jurov: "Full kits include
a main board, 16 hashing boards,
a raspberry pi, and cables to set up the miner."
mircea_popescu: in retrospect i think this is absolutely the first time
a genuine wording problem has come to fore. the previous one (on the bfl specs) was thoroughly manufactured by dishonest blf.
fractal: jborkl:
a 400Gh was advertised as "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"" -- this will not be shipped
fractal: jborkl: Its not irrelvant since its in the bet.... UNIT means
a single device
fractal: Anduck: if i recall logs correctly, mircea_popescu stated
a 400gh device would have to be proven.... i'll have to check logs again tho.
Anduck: mircea_popescu: will there be needed
a 400 gh unit delivered?
fractal: jborkl: No, not in
a single device
mircea_popescu: jborkl that's the stated intention. nobody has yet come forward having received
a 400gh order
jborkl: they bet is
a yes then
fractal: Anduck: they can't fit 20h-boards on
a 400gh unit.....
a 400gh unit can fix 16h-cards maximum.... hence UNIT
fractal:
A miner is as advertised ""1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips""
mircea_popescu: kleeck there's also
a very lulzy one on the forum and here from back in march. some guy named rikur and some other guy
Anduck: it's very clear it means the promised miner (
a kit or
a unit)
fractal: Anduck: No, 400Gh unit is
a single device, not multiple devices.
Anduck: the unit is the same thing as
a kit
fractal: Anduck: I dont see any mention of KIT on there. And If i read the language the performance is not met in
a device.
Anduck: fractal: he's allowed to ship as much h-boards and m-boards needed to get the performance. it wouldn't break the bet.... if they would eat more watts than promised, that would be
a bet-breaker
fractal: mircea_popescu: becaucause he could ship as much hardware to make up for it -- provided the power usage was low enough.... but I placed the bet based on Power usage AND hashrate in
a single self-contained UNIT
kleeck: and they have to be
a "mining unit" and they have to hash at the given rates and draw at the given powers.
fractal: Anduck: If the bet language said "If punin can't make
a 400Gh single device, he's allow to ship as much hardware as he wan'ts, and we'll just consider it
a 'KIT' "" --- if it said that, there's no way in my right mind i would have bet NO... it would be an impossible bet to win
fractal: Anduck: No, its not. The bet says nothing of
a KIT. it says
a mining unit. Somehing that is
a single prodcut attacted..... 2 seperate products adding up to more then 400Gh mean that the manufacturer missed performance spec for that unit
Anduck: there was and never could've been
a single card producing 400 ghash, it was sold as
a "h-cards enough to make 400 ghash unit". RIGHT?
Anduck:
a mining unit is
a mining kit, isn't it?
kleeck: Yes. What I'm seeing is the classic, "Oh come on, we all knew the intended bet!" Which isn't
a sound defense. The debate must center around the words used to describe the bet. If the product is
a "mining unit" and meets the spec in the bet, then Anduck is correct, else fractal is correct.
Anduck: fractal: the 25gh unit is
a 25gh kit as sold for customers, doesn't say it must include 1 h-board.
fractal: mircea_popescu: right.... but in fairness, the bet doesn't say that the manufactuere can miss hashrate performance on
a single 25Gh board, and ship more to make up for it!
mircea_popescu: kleeck bitbet is
a fascinating exercise in the limits of communication.
fractal: Anduck: well I only placed
a no bet based on the language of
a UNIT being
a self-containted device that is attached....
gribble: Error: "define" is not
a valid command.
Anduck:
a mining unit, 400 gh mining unit, is built from several h-boards and m-boards
mircea_popescu: <fractal> Anduck: I came in here specifically to ask mircea_popescu and he said that
a 400Gh 'UNIT' must exist --- based on the math, it can't <<< which snippet is this ?
fractal: Anduck: you can't make
a vague bet, and then claim 'semantics' when you lose
Anduck: kleeck: yes.
a starter kit includes 2 h-boards and 400gh kit includes 18 or 19 h-boards