2900+ entries in 0.001s
diana_coman: re maintaining
the infrastructure, I don't see how it can be really justified as such anyway given
that uhm,
those doing something with it are anyway essentially non-existent currently so can't maintain so
they "do" anything; and if it is
to *also* build
them up,
then well,
they'll fit whatever infrastructure is provided, not
the other way around.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu: I had
the article on
the
toolchain to help her as I knew she was having a go at it based on some discussion in #eulora I
think; maybe
that?
mircea_popescu: hanbot, why
the fuck didn't you write it out ? i remember reading SOMETHING.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman,
the problem with
the foregoing is
that i can kinda ballpark
the COST of maintaining all
the infrastructure for monkeys
to
typewrite at
their leisure. so can you, i expect.
hanbot: nah, i committed a major sin
there, possibly i'll have
to pay by starting over and properly documenting.
mircea_popescu: so you're saying
the unusable
tools part was not
the making but
the exporting, as it were ?
hanbot: i had a lot of fun modeling a slime guy in blender,
then discovered getting it
to a usable form via "baking
textures" etc 5 or so layers deep was ... i guess i'd call it beyond my attention span.
mircea_popescu: except, of course,
they don't. and when hanbot
TRIED
to do it, she died in a flaming mess of deeply inadequate
tools. she almost made a slime. ALMOST.
mircea_popescu: so it's worth making a
thing like blender, and
then making a
thing like
the inexistent exporter, and
then making a
thing like cs, and all
the xml wrapping and etcetera,
mircea_popescu: so hard and difficult and unapproachable and scary and etcetera is
this question of splittign
the space,
that it is worthwhile
to go
to all
the
trouble of farming a bunch of morons, because
their crap/noncrap decision is
tantamount
to fucking holy, and no deployment of anything but honest
to god
THE dude from big lebowsky can possibly cut it.
mircea_popescu: now
the proposition here is, as i understand it,
the following :
mircea_popescu: but mostly,
there's going
to be empty space. or rather : "crap" is
the largest equivalency class.
mircea_popescu: alright. out of
this space of 3bn units, once applying
the rule of "looks like a game character" (or "mob" or whatever forumation of "is useful for eulora")
there's going
to be a few equivalency classes (most visible on say nintendo, bcause most annoying on nintendo, really,
the wolf+1 gets blond hair ?)
mircea_popescu: a cube a
thousand pixels wide will
take,
to be naively described point by point, about 3*256 Gb.
this means
there's about a
trillion such cubes. yes ?
mircea_popescu: now let's see here : leaving aside for
the sake of discoursive coherence
the correct vectorial representation, and making do with a purely catesian approach (aka bitmaps) for
the
time being, on
the expectation
that while
this rather
than
that allows much easier quantification,
that rather
than
this doesn't magically pack much more complexity, greeks be damned :
diana_coman: that yes, I do;
though I am partial
to an sukhoi more
than
to an AI because at least it's a concrete beast I guess.
diana_coman: as above, it's negative value, below
that "not much" for
the sukhoi.
diana_coman: rather: unclear what *useful*
thing it does
diana_coman: what, for buying an AI system
that is "very powerful" when ran
through
the proprietary bundle & otherwise unclear what it does?
mircea_popescu: otherwise, it... i dunno, it makes a skymap if you print
the 1's as stars i guess.
mircea_popescu: if run
through
the proprietary bundle, it beats any human at go.
mircea_popescu: now, suppose we change out
the sukhoi, and chande in instead "an artificial intelligence", specifically, a few
TB of w/e worth of mostly 0s, binary values.
diana_coman: myeah; I fell in love with it at 17 (when read
the promise) and
then promptly barfed by 19 (when encountered
the full extent of
the "practice")
mircea_popescu: artificial intelligence as actually extant
today is, leaving aside all sorta obscure lulz alf used
to like referencing about expert systems and nato wargames, and
the assorted lulzpile of neural networks and etc from
the very dead 70s, and also leaving aside
the whole life OF
MINSKY, and
then sussma
mircea_popescu: "artificial intelligence", like "flight" or whatever else, is as such and in
the abstract a long cherished dream of humanity.
diana_coman: oh huh, only one? dunno, perhaps
the idea is
to reverse engineer,
that might be about
the only possible value I can see but it's dubious for all sorts of reasons.
mircea_popescu: i suspect
the item as discussed is actually worth 0, yes, making complete idiots of
the management of all
the us' "allies".
diana_coman: if you are asking "what is
this item worth
to *you*", well, not much;
the fuck do I do with
this sukhoi.
mircea_popescu: well,
there's one overarching bit of context here :
the offer is
to sell ~ONE~
diana_coman: because "what
this item is worth" depends on more
than just
the item in itself and I have no idea even on
the item really, let alone
the context.
diana_coman: ugh,
this seems out of my advising capabilities really.
mircea_popescu: so,
the sukhoi 34 is a pretty cool plane ; in any case
the basis of
the russian defeat in
the field of usg's pretense
to air participation. now suppose for
the sake of argument someone comes offering
to sell one ; and suppose further
that you're
to advise on
the purchase by providing a single scalar value : what
the item is worth iyo.
mircea_popescu: bear with me here, because
this is going
to be lengthy.
diana_coman: the sort of accumulating accidental complexity,
to link it in with
trinque's
thread re OS.
diana_coman: hm; I keep
thinking
that "perhaps I don't know enough about
them
to find
the value" ; as I see
them now,
they are more accumulations of
trial and error/overfitting/tinkering
though so
they seem of very little - or indeed negative - value
tbh.
diana_coman: oh boy, I'm possibly
the last person
to ask for an argument pro "valuable" on
those.
mircea_popescu: explain
this
to me, can you ? why are
these valuable ?
mircea_popescu: the other part is
that, well... why exactly is a
texture / skin / shader / model / anything else in compgfx even valuable in
the first place ?
mircea_popescu: so i don't even know on what basis i'm supposed
to decide what, here.
mircea_popescu: ists worth
the mention" discussed in
the article and so on.
mircea_popescu: one is
that a coupla years of diligent work have gotten eulora
to
this position where it actually outgrew
the intellectual basis of
the community such as it is in pretty much every respect. many
things nominally upstream would be inputs for
this decision spot but are sadly absent, from "well... what about scheme
then ?" coincidentally brought up avbove
to
the self-obvious "how did
the western world produce 0 graphic art
diana_coman: mircea_popescu: hm,
thinking now about it, I
think
there might be, namely
the more directly game-relevant parts
that are also not yet fully spec (eg character, structure/item etc); I need
to go over it in
this light, put
the graphics
to
the side for now and see from
there.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman, let's restate
this, so currently work on nailing down
the comms protocol is stalled on a definitive universal data model, which is stalled on graphical use in
the client,
that about it ?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-28 02:22:16 mircea_popescu: so listen... while you were away
there's been a lot of progress ongoing in
the republic,
these guys now have blogs and stick
to publishing planning schedules and such wunderbar alien
techs. you gonna catch up with
the group ?
mircea_popescu: diana_coman, motherfucker,
they force-inherited us with
their idiotic everything-depends-on-everything-else model, did
they!
mircea_popescu: pretty much
the only lisp i use how shall we put
this, on a day
to day basis as opposed
to some kinda ceremonial function
mircea_popescu: hanbot, a,
that's actually a good point -- we might want
to look into how gimp uses scheme for scripting
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-29 09:56:30 mircea_popescu: neways, as
to
the burning "OTOH, I wonder if
things like Apache or imagemagick get installed, how will
the package management system work out, and how comprehensible will system stay?" question -- i see
the merit of using
the clean spot as a fixed point
to attempt expanding cleanliness. so, it would work by apache becoming
tmserv or w/e, and not sucking anymore.
diana_coman: oh; I was blissfully unaware of
the extent of xml-shading, lolz.
mircea_popescu: 56 stars ans 86 forks, if
this ain't
the mark of
the
times i can't imagine what'd be
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-30 07:02:12 mircea_popescu:
http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-29#1956250 << i honestly
think it's
the right approach. "identify an useful iota of acceptable internal structure and measure everything in
that". next step self-obviously being, "once pretty much everything's within
the first sigma,
take another look at what you mean by acceptable internal structure".
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-29 18:21:12
trinque: whaack: starting at beliefs is going
to be a shaky foundation, but fwiw I "believe" most folks writing lisp
today are compulsive masturbators like gabriel_laddel
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-29 18:20:02
trinque: which is not just a bunch of bawww. it's worthwhile
to question wtf we use
to value
things within which *whole lifetimes* can be lost, wasted.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-23 02:15:42 mp_en_viaje: wut is
this java bullshit, "oh, i've been fucking
three women". mocky.org/three-nude-sluts when!
mircea_popescu: in short, we might be one or
two "cultural aspects" away from anything like a useful or usable version of common lisp. now go
fuck some teenie boppers on cam ; and when you're done have
them eat your ass. ON CAM. and
then maybe we lisp
together, later.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, all solved problems begin
their life as solved problems
through first being closed ; a refusal
to close problem and a
tendency
to "keep problems open" is in
the end specifically what
neoteny even is.
mircea_popescu: but you don't ~like~ closed problems, or rather, you deem
the putative existence of such a
thing as closed problems as such a
threat
to your misconception of identity, it's almost like it's
the koschei stealing
the above-linked "cultural aspects" of
young female chest away from you.
mircea_popescu: and what i mean by "there's no more space" is rather a lot in
the vein of "you lot chafe and get massively butthurt at even
the faintest version of what
that world would look like anyone [by which we mean me, for lack of alternatives] can come up with". lisp is a
tool for resolving closed problems, not for floating about
the endless uncharted seas [
http://trilema.com/2014/i-love-rochester-so-will-you/?b=try%20to&e=swim# mircea_popescu: the main problem (and
the reason i don't come across as much of a lisp fan) is
that since
the 80s complexity exploded significantly ;
there's no more space for proto lisp as represented by
mel ; nor for
the classical lisp as represented by
the defunct moron club.
mircea_popescu: THAT is
the great value of lisp, in its classical form as understood by
they regarded as luminaries by
the "cultural aspects" crowd :
that once you're done mentally digesting your problem,
the peristalsis is as short and uncumbersome as it can possibly be.
mircea_popescu: does indeed dance with
these wolves) ; and
then once
THAT is complete
the solution
takes five minutes of notation.
mircea_popescu: traditionally lisp coding consists of spending some
time
to ~well~ understand your problem ;
the internal ast of
this digestion is not well fit for language (even
though yes,
the bleeding edge of human
technologies & understandings as represented by
trilema
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-29 18:19:37 whaack: diana_coman: if i search for a piece of lisp code
to do something, I have a (perhaps naive) belief
that I am more likely
to find something well written, since
there are fewer people using
the language
mircea_popescu: ral carefully disolving every grain of actual
thought into many galons of moosauce (which is what
the "go playing" moo-engine even uses
to identify "similar" bits "that might interest you")
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-29 18:19:12
trinque: all my
tmsr work
to date could've been php or pyshits for all
the difference it would've made.
mircea_popescu: we gotta
think
this
through. and also let's see what jfw says and so on.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-29 18:13:10 diana_coman: re paster
though
tbh
this attempt (coming as it does on
top of
the previous mess with
python and its flask) left me looking again for not using either.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-29 18:11:26 diana_coman: ahaha, by now I see
that
trinque will measure everything in multiples of busybox.
mircea_popescu:
http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-29#1956250 << i honestly
think it's
the right approach. "identify an useful iota of acceptable internal structure and measure everything in
that". next step self-obviously being, "once pretty much everything's within
the first sigma,
take another look at what you mean by acceptable internal structure".
mircea_popescu: not
to
tar you with a well used brush, but it HAS been
the experience
to date.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-29 18:12:50 whaack:
trinque: First, I find it more pleasant writing in lisp. Second, I like
the cultural aspect of a (present day) more niche language.
Then for problems with python: i find
the single line lambdas a strange requirement, and not having
tail call optimization is lame (although i admit i can't
think of many/any cases where
that's been a problem)
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-29 18:07:26
trinque: which includes a shell
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-29 18:02:34
trinque: if we were
to retain lisp, I'd say pick one, don't have a python alongside it, and don't expect
to use much "open source"
to help you.
mircea_popescu: naggum for
that mattter is being whipped upside down in hell even as we speak, specifically for "wtf did you do with your calling, you schmuck, killed yourself before hearing it ?
TAKE IT LIKE A LITTLE BITCH".
mircea_popescu: one irresponsible
twit gave himself fatal ulcer,
the other and so on.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-08-26 13:49:11 phf: you ought
to consider moving here, or at least coming for a visit.
the place is a lot livelier
than dc, food is better, girls are prettier,
things are generally cheaper, etc. etc. etc.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-10 15:14:42 mp_en_viaje: and in general --
the absentee,
the insufficient,
the "otherwise busy",
the butthurt, physically or mentally -- better pray
they're in fact quite as inconsequential as
they seem.