log☇︎
193000+ entries in 1.403s
asciilifeform: imho it is far from a sure thing that this will so much as add one drop of sweat to a usg inquisitor's work
mircea_popescu: consider a bunch of chatlogs from gossipd presented in court.
asciilifeform: sigs are pure win, for a creature like myself, just about everything that comes out of my mouth is 'signed' enough for inquisitor!
asciilifeform: how many of the folks present are ready to believe that this 'asciilifeform' is the same animal they are accustomed to enduring the company of in #b-a ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform lives in a submarine and never connects to you or your friends. i give him my own version of the "Artifex" key. he signs it.
artifexd: I have a fingerprint. Or a public key. I give that fingerprint or key a name. Anything not that key or fingerprint won't match to the name.
mircea_popescu: computer only finds through a direct connection.
mircea_popescu: if i get a fake key of you and sign it... it's good as far as the computer is concerned.
mircea_popescu: for that matter, if we keep the A B C D ; X Y Z K convention, then A can impersonate K to Y only provided B isn't linked to C that is linked to D.
mircea_popescu: technically, anyone can make a gpg key and name it Mircea Popescu
artifexd: Fuck. What are we discussing.... Oh yeah. Why automatically adding any type of verification to a message is bad.
kakobrekla: actually snatched from irc not a bar and our gfs make bad examples for this.
artifexd: You have to beg for a chance to demonstrate the ability to be interesting before you get a chance to get judged.
mircea_popescu: how did lampelina come in ? kako added her to his node and said "hey, lampelina is this hot blondy I met in a bar."
mircea_popescu: artifexd either that, or otherwise getting into a relationship with one of the people in
artifexd: After the thing is up and running for 6 months. How does some insightful dude off the street get in? Look for a public (and thus completely untrusted) access ircd that will let him connect and hope to build an identity to the point that you say "hey insightful_dude_from_the_street", what's your ip address? I'll let you connect to me because you say useful
mircea_popescu: a wot fork ?
assbot: 15680 results for 'gribble' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=gribble
artifexd: The key in the wot has no relation AT ALL to the message I just received with a fingerprint.
mircea_popescu: there's a great progression at work there.
mircea_popescu: it does, and that's exactly what;s happening, in the proper model. people chat. on that chat they build contracts. their contract history is fixed in a wot.
mircea_popescu: for all you know bob is part of a 500 key ring operated by 5k monkeys.
asciilifeform: 'trust' is probably a word that will have to be retired, like phlogiston.
mircea_popescu: with or without a key. there is no mechanical solution to trust
artifexd: Part of the trust is that you can handle a key.
artifexd: I would have to have a direct connection to bob in order to believe anything with his fingerprint.
mircea_popescu: if you wish to elevate some chat to a contract, you directly can do that too.
artifexd: millisecond timestamps and a counter would do that too.
asciilifeform: prevents a future forged conversation stitched out of words you have uttered.
artifexd: Other than the argument that a signed "no" could be used for something malicious. Uh... It just means that you said no. It doesn't imply what you said no in response to. Just that you said no.
mircea_popescu: yes stan, if you wish to have a blockchain you will end up having to implement one.
asciilifeform: in the end, you end up with a poor reimplementation of 'blockchain' anyway
asciilifeform: let's say that a fair number of node operators wish to cache. now they are stuck retaining (and transmitting, regularly!) a vast number of duplicate copies of many wotgraphs
asciilifeform: well, in a sense they are; but we're really surrendering to entropy here far more than, imho, is necessary
mircea_popescu: i still don't see there's a difference.
mircea_popescu: that's why if right now i change a rating, the old one's gone.
asciilifeform: or adjust his own graph-weights? (that would somewhat defeat the purpose of a wot, loses information)
asciilifeform: because it is in a bottle.
asciilifeform: a copy of my wotgraph kept around as a message in a bottle under nitrogen in my brother's house, say, will not really carry out its function as a live reflection of my wot-will.
asciilifeform: probably quite a few folks. but the thing that distinguishes fermat from wot is that wot needs to be at least quasi-'hot' to really work as intended, imho.
mircea_popescu: but for as long as anyone gives a shit, they'll be there.
asciilifeform: someone manually copied it to a text file at some point ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyone who saw the old ones has a copy!
artifexd: So what is the value of this vice a private stock ircd with a gribble?
asciilifeform: we again arrive at a system of ad-hoc, bug-ridden relays and informal mirrors
asciilifeform: and say my sub, a considerably poorer vessel, only has connection when on equator. say, one day in 60, in sight of particular satellite.
asciilifeform: not so much a concern re: fakes, but losses.
mircea_popescu: inasmuch as my old wot is still signed with my old key, and you have a copy
asciilifeform: to borrow a greenspunish,
asciilifeform: but it stays around as a statue, for so long as nanotube remains ungassed
asciilifeform: and i can't sign it with a fresh mircea-nonce.
asciilifeform: a martian death ray takes out a satellite. the ship is now within five day's steam of the next chance for net connection
asciilifeform: let's imagine the good ship Mircea, a four-reactored former soviet nuke sub;
asciilifeform: in mircea_popescu's scheme, my wot-graph exists as a bitstring that my particular node will disgorge if asked?
mircea_popescu: for all practical purposes i am his 3rd split personality, a figment of his rich imagination.
mircea_popescu: without a requirement to sign.
artifexd: Wanna be somebody else, grab a new key.
artifexd: When you and I have a conversation on here (and gribble is around, and you ident to a key), then later you and I have another conversation (and, again, gribble is around and you ident to the same key), then I can trust that I am talking to the same person I was before.
artifexd: It would be a timestamped "No".
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> for that matter, imagine a "No" string signed. what now ? << This is the big.
mircea_popescu: this "objective existence of user" is a trap in our task here. it doesn' tserve, it hinders.
mircea_popescu: artifexd you have a clue : either your friend, or someone who only exists
mircea_popescu: for that matter, imagine a "No" string signed. what now ?
mircea_popescu: than sign a contract there.
artifexd: Everyone is already identified by crypto. Why not ensure that messages that say they are from a keyset actually came from the keyset?
BingoBoingo: Is anyone (mike_c?) interested in doing a recap of 2014 in Bitcoin finance?
artifexd: Because we are building a new system from the ground up.
mircea_popescu: in fact, for all you know A sends whole different novels to B and C.
artifexd: What stops server A from inventing messages by B?
artifexd: Maybe A is trustworthy but got the message from D.
artifexd: When a message A for B C comes over the wire, how can I trust that B actually said C?
assbot: Logged on 05-01-2015 17:59:47; davout: i was thinking rely on GPG and simply encode a nonce in the message
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: complicates your design a bit, as now you have two classes of message
mircea_popescu: since by very definition gestapo can't trust A B C
mircea_popescu: a there it is.
assbot: Logged on 12-11-2014 01:24:54; asciilifeform: ^ my ancient failed attempt at 'wot.' was to be used with another (never happened) apparatus, 'sollipse,' for running a 'multiverse' of wots.
asciilifeform: it isn't a scalar.
asciilifeform: the notion of 'trustworthiness' as a scalar is fundamental to scamatrons of all stripes. ☟︎
assbot: 14 results for 'kyristor' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=kyristor
mircea_popescu: for that matter, a "total score" is nonsense predicated on this mistaken view.
artifexd: Side question: How do you quote a previous comment on trilema?
asciilifeform: now answer under what circumstances one can accept a loss of even one packet of WoT computation.
mircea_popescu: a 360 baud modem loses 99% of usenet messages out of a pipe which puts out 36kbps worth of messages continuously.
artifexd: The storage requirements for a usenet server are stupid high.
mircea_popescu: it's a chat.,
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's not really a log-with-chat.
asciilifeform: perhaps root of disagreement is that i originally contemplated something more along the lines of a very fast usenet, rather than potentially slow chat.
mircea_popescu: if i were to connect to irc with a 360 baud modem i would similarily lose messages.
asciilifeform: this apparatus of yours is not merely ircd with new coat of paint. it is a very different animal mathematically, as you lot will soon realize.
artifexd: Sure it would. If you have a connection to another server, it will send you all the messages it gets. Although I imagine some manner of "screw you, you're too slow" code will be needed eventually.
asciilifeform: if i'm on a satellite modem, i doubt that one in ten messages of 5-second window will make it through to my node.
mircea_popescu: because it's chat. if someone wants to log it, that's a diff story.
artifexd: Why? If you're connected when a message comes across the wire, you get it. If not, you don't. Much like irc now.
asciilifeform: why not allow a node to store as much history as he wishes to expend on disk
asciilifeform: a window of 5 seconds will give quite a few dropped messages.
mircea_popescu: artifexd ah that's a point. my 1hour was outer limit.
artifexd: If a bundle is sent every second.
Apocalyptic: mircea, I get a timeout for both trilema and qntra, looks like we may have been banned, which is surprising because I didn't refresh the page too quickly
mircea_popescu: the messages should be kept around for a short interval (hour ?) while the user can retain them as long as he wants.
asciilifeform: how is it a problem ?