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mircea_popescu: the theory says, that for any context there exists in all cases a P-threshold epsilon, such that if P>e W=0 whereas if P<e, W=q, where q is a quantified amount of productivity (because yes, W is quantified, like low-scale energies).
mircea_popescu: call that P. meanwhile output, or productivity, is expressed as a different scalar, call it W.
mircea_popescu: work conditions (understood as available toolset, and available paradigm, driving respectively a physical (ie, time-cost, perceived as pain) and mental (also perceived as pain) cost sum to a scalar describing the "painfulness" of the workplace.
mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-05#1933961 << it occurs to me this passed unformalized, and it'd be a pity. so, the mp theory of work-conditions-and-productivity-for-intellectuals :
lobbes: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934071 << about to head to bed, but tomorrow morning I'm gonna do some deep log spelunking and investigating and report findings in a blog post.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-06 15:26:07 asciilifeform: lobbes, diana_coman , et al : logotron page updated to include lobbes's piece !
lobbes: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934213 << ty!
asciilifeform off to meat.
snsabot: Logged on 2018-02-02 11:23:06 asciilifeform: the 'postel's law' nonsense, of silently forgiving people who send liquishit at the dusty disused corners of the protocol, enabling there to even ~be~ such a thing as dusty corners in a protocol!, MUST die.
trinque: I'm gonna go chase a girl around the house a bit, bbl
asciilifeform: if they'd actually made it variant, like was orig. meant, you would have noticed right away that your algo aint it.
asciilifeform: it is interesting, irc protocol asks that pingism follow form 'PING foo' 'PONG foo' . but their foo seems to be a constant.
asciilifeform: trinque: if you had made it 29 -- prolly would have seemed to work 4evah
trinque: lol, and my ping thread was doing every 30sec!
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-31 23:58:52 asciilifeform: (i.e. it is in fact possible to fleanode with hands! via telnet)
asciilifeform: trinque: i found , when experimented, that you have just about half minute! to answer their ping
trinque: the cuntoo experience really did some radiation damage to my patience for the oss stack.
trinque: "have you tried installing it with up facing up?"
trinque: so then, lets say freenode pings you if you haven't pinged in last x, and x happened to resemble my ping interval closely.
trinque: and I was using chat.freenode.net, and lo, the bot was better connected in certain sessions than others.
asciilifeform: iirc mircea_popescu surveyed, and found that it was some laffably small #
trinque: to freenode, I'd be willing to wager
asciilifeform: ping to trinque's current chair ?
trinque: god, unrelatedly, it suddenly becomes clear that when I moved deedbot to singapore, I increased his ping.
asciilifeform: would really like to get back to conveyor .
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-06 15:52:02 asciilifeform: tho possibly still isn't exactly what we traditionally want. e.g. this , possibly oughta match only space-bounded strings when quoted term ?
asciilifeform: after http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934226 is put to rest, i'ma leave the logger alone, unless someone finds catastrophic problem .
trinque: heh, this place needs a cartoonist so bad
asciilifeform: seems like erry summer asciilifeform does a jet-powered flight into brick wall. last time it was the cr50 thing.
asciilifeform: trinque: it is. tho i lost more than month (not counting the entirely pointless expedition of 'M', then could say lost 3mo ! )
trinque: I'm just glad to hear it's still on teh conveyor
asciilifeform: i.e. even answering the feasibility q is likely to be quite expensive.
asciilifeform: whole thread nearly borders on sin, given as almost anyffin i say on the subj is likely to be catastrophically wrong.
asciilifeform: 1 of the reasons why iron is such a bitch is that ~very~ small differences in logical design can give gigantic diff in performance.
asciilifeform: this is difficult to calculate 'on napkin' w/out an actual complete iron design, however.
asciilifeform: entirely possib. that it is only feasible in 35nm or better.
asciilifeform: aaand this is counting whole interval, in which not only rsa but e.g. keccak padding calc. gotta happen.
trinque: so potentially could go for bigger process than 65nm?
asciilifeform: ( btw , for thread-completeness -- you need 4096 modexp in < 3.8 ~microsecond~ to eat GB at line-rate. )
asciilifeform: i certainly wouldn't invite anyone to pay to build such space station until thoroughly familiar with working example 'in soft'
trinque: I'd just want to know who we're selling to. ourselves isn't enough
trinque: maybe at that point a couple of us can muster a couple 100k to see it baked
asciilifeform: a gb nic can theoretically swallow 2**18 512b packets / sec .
asciilifeform: i'ma get it to the point where does the job orig. promised. but 'unsinkable network battleship' will have to wait for actual irons , as i understand .
trinque: call that a positive, less risk of prototype standing up and running away from your desk
asciilifeform: you can parallelize the work, but the amt of effective diff it makes , is relatively small when compared to the absolute size of the above shortfall.
asciilifeform: but important to remember that yer nic can still eat 512b shitograms roughly 10,000x faster than you can modexp on'em . even w/ bvt's asmisms.
trinque: if there is any other mundanity in the way feel free to throw it at me.
asciilifeform: trinque: the slow prototype is what asciilifeform (is slowly getting back nao!) to working on .
trinque: the slow prototype'd still be useful as that, no?
asciilifeform: on ordinary x86 -- state-of-art today is bvt's inline asm where 0.25s per 4096bit modexp .
asciilifeform: if you actually want to verify 4096bit rsa packets at line rate, tho, yer stuck baking silicon.
asciilifeform: imho it's the obv. Right Thing.
trinque: I have been enamored of this idea since the first mircea_popescu and asciilifeform threads on same.
asciilifeform: trinque: it would indeed 'cut world', in the sense that gives you a gossiptronic net fully layered over the traditional one. and with dozen+ entrance boxen, suddenly impossible to effectively ddos anything on the inner (i.e. what comes out of the 2nd plug) world.
trinque: the republic can't live correctly and expect folks to line up. the world's too far gone. money has to whip around in republic-shaped loops long enough to retrain enough human heads.
trinque: I wouldn't propose building the thing without first identifying the market.
asciilifeform: i'm inclined to agree. but possibly asciilifeform is that last one who oughta talk about 'what has market', asciilifeform also thought FG had mega-market waiting.
trinque: even them.
trinque: that thing has a market. everyone knows tls is a lie.
asciilifeform: i proposed it in '16 as a 'gateway' into gossipnet. ( eats packets at line rate, emits from 2nd nic hole the ones that were found edible. )
trinque: this cuts the world enough to be useful, unless I'm stupid
asciilifeform: iirc we had thread about this.
trinque: so if you'll permit a dunce, imagine a device with a trusted and untrusted interface.
asciilifeform: their physical size is ~cube of the bitness , and speed of light is finite.
asciilifeform: aha. tho presently i doubt that it's physically possible to make a 4096x4096b multiplier converge in <1ns
trinque: so that's the 1ns?
trinque: how fast is the iron?
asciilifeform: trinque: so, actual honest iron ? 1-2mil transistors. i.e. coupla 100k $ for 1st tray, and afterwards a few cents ea. if baked in qty. as you might expect.
trinque: i.e. inside I have w/e, naked women, dancing bears, there's a membrane at the edge of my lair run by the ??? in question
snsabot: Logged on 2019-09-06 22:06:40 asciilifeform: and wait ~1s to multiply 1x1 ?
asciilifeform: ( http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934333 is obv. exaggeration, if anyone doesn't grasp. but yer still talking about a 1ms op where normally x86 gives 1ns )
trinque: can an item be built that functions at a network boundary quickly
asciilifeform: i can maybe answer the q, if it is made very, very concrete.
trinque: what's the iron peh cost
asciilifeform: trinque: an 'iron peh', where the ALU is actually e.g. 4096b-wide -- may be workable as general-purpose comp.
asciilifeform: tho imho in this case it is moar like using battalion howitzer as fishing pole.
asciilifeform: iirc mircea_popescu called this 'use 50cal rifle as fishing pole'
trinque: perhaps to establish session
asciilifeform: and wait ~1s to multiply 1x1 ?
asciilifeform: rly you'd want to burn e.g. 4096bits when looping over a 1byte variable ?
asciilifeform: trinque: trivial if you know the magick inits for $nic.
trinque: what's next there? how far is it from being bolted to a network socket of some kind?
asciilifeform: on e.g. x86, a forth complete enuff that you could comfortably live the rest of your life in it, weighs about 1kB.
asciilifeform: forth also has the afaik unique attribute where standing up a forth on bare iron is ~weekend's work for an adept
asciilifeform: i'm not about to ask folx to learn it tho ( asciilifeform in fact quite fond of forth, and used extensively. but i also recognize that to most people utterly 'martian' )
asciilifeform: trinque: for overall smallest mass of system + all needed for $problem ? afaik forth in fact is the unchallenged champ, wherever was historically tried.
trinque: the existence of mod_php isn't much of an argument either. there's mod_everything
asciilifeform: trinque: i went to look at what is php made from ( given all the prodding by mircea_popescu ) and seems to weigh at least as much as the python toolchain
trinque: seems like the arms with least resistance to being torn off usefully are the ones with shortest dependency chain.
trinque: being simplistic; there's plenty of hybrid to be had
asciilifeform: ( e.g. java, and microshit, prolly the very usg gosplan & central bank run on'em. still liquishit. )
trinque: the republic can do one of two things. it can eat a language including interpreter/compiler, or it can take the "tear-arms-off-and-beat-them-with" approach.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-08-14 10:55:56 asciilifeform: 'lamp' and the influx of deskilled labour connected with its rise , is imho exactly basketball tumour, and succinctly summarized by naggum
asciilifeform: trinque: imho the moar printolade flowed 'through' $proggy, tends to be the moar of a turd it is
trinque: been thinking of another angle on the question. these items are residue left by *money* flowing through them
asciilifeform: lobbes iirc went to make one, lessee what he comes back with
trinque: heh, does this become an even better case for apache+php. "you only need it for search/comments/etc"
trinque: iirc at one point also a block explorer was contemplated that'd shit static html
trinque: sure, I'm not trying to take it away