186600+ entries in 0.109s
Framedragger: it *reminded* me of
that fact, i knew it was crazy
turing complete madness before
tho :D
erlehmann: i bet you read
that at
the orange wobsite
erlehmann: reducing something
to NOP seemed
to imply something different
Framedragger: isn't it fun
that even C macros are not context-free, huehuehue. such language!
erlehmann: but back
to
the GCC example, i
think someone said “a computer can not recognize meaninglessness” or similar
erlehmann: i am ever so slightly sorry for not
telling in understandable ways
erlehmann: mircea_popescu certainly, i was referring
to a different person
that claimed a computer can not work with “a → b … and also, a is false” or something like
that
erlehmann: while
teaching formal methods
to work with it
erlehmann: i
think i actually got
through by demonstrating n3
phf: (heavy
technobabble) prof: yeah yeah ugh i can see
that, moving on
erlehmann: i
think part of
the room was sufficiently disoriented by
the fact
that GCC drops loops without side effects
mircea_popescu: of all
the gone
traditions of
the academic citadel,
the one mp most regrets is mercilessness.
mircea_popescu: phf and
then you ask him why he continues
to pretend like he has something
to say in plenum and he breaks down and cries before 200 students.
phf: i wonder if
this creates significant cognitive dissonance in
these people. it
took me a while
to learn how
to scale elegance (and how incredibly costly it is, hence gems like
tex.web ARE gems), but here you have a prof, drinking own koolaid of whatever best practices, attempts
to write a non-trivial project and ends up with unmanageable complexity
Framedragger: thanks for
the pointer, will actually check. i know a bit of german but
too little. may make it even more fun,
tho
Framedragger: erlehmann: am currently in UK which given its government's position on "weird sex" probably has outlawed said website
through multiple acts of parliament
erlehmann: well, unless you are easily offended,
that is
erlehmann: Framedragger if you know german, i suggest
to play unteralterbach. i also suggest
to not visit commonwealth countries and others with weird sex laws (comic sex = real punishments) when having
that.
Framedragger: (not sure what "good philosopher" would even mean
these days, most of "modern philosophy" is same ol' "research journal" printolade anyway)
phf: Framedragger: it's probably shit code
that professor was planning on fixing "eventually". i've managed
to acquire a number of
these "secret" sources while at umd and most of
them were horrendous.
mircea_popescu: most oracles also discover
they're much better cooks
than oracles.
erlehmann: turns out i am a far better programmer
than philosopher btw
erlehmann: i quit studying philosophy at HU
to earn money.
mircea_popescu: natural language is useless for any serious rational purpose without endless washing and starching. math does not suffer from
the same problem.
Framedragger: source code.. wonder if
there's a good reason possible if intention was
to give source eventually. prolly not...
erlehmann: Framedragger in short. climate at
TUM is like “you are becoming engineers. do not ask questions. money goes
to research.”
erlehmann: the only person who would not give complete corresponding source and supplementary materials for stuff was a neuroscientist i
think. something about having done lots of work
to collect
the data and analyze it.
Framedragger long ago got a "you're not yet ready
to read kant, read
this about kant", which in retrospect may have been a misjudgement (you can kinda sorta just read Kant, esp. if you're read hume), but i just went along with it. worked in
the end. maybe not comparable situation, but anyway
erlehmann: i moved
to berlin
to study philosphy at humboldt university. different climate
there. especially regarding bad
teaching.
erlehmann: Framedragger 1. prof demoed some program he wrote (?) in linear algebra course 2. i asked about source code. 3. answer was like “you do not get source code, you would not understand anyway” 4. no other student
thought it ridiculous for a
teacher
to not give source. 5. i found out implementation was really simple.
mircea_popescu: ahh, recall
the grand old days when
this
terminology was getting established ?
Framedragger: erlehmann: just idly curious, why did you not continue studying at
TUM? i'm only curious because i considered
that once,
too, and "heard it was good" (well
they also seemed
to be offering solid-looking courses when i visited
them in ~2013). just in case answer pertains
to objective details
erlehmann: “forced/forcing german” → “zwangs deutsch” → losing
the “w”, sounding like
the word for forceps → “zangen deutsch”
erlehmann: in german
the calque word for a german calque is “zangendeutsch”
erlehmann: i
think he meant it more like “haha good luck you imbecile”
mircea_popescu: "in
the manner of,
to
the effect of, in
the style of, like"
mircea_popescu: sounds very "we in europe have 60%
taxes and
think women should
talk at
the
table."
erlehmann: asciilifeform where does
the
tron(ic) suffix come from? versionatron? chumpatronic?
erlehmann: the former boss of my boss, when asked about ethereum, was like “my investment strategy is: i hope you get rich with ether and
then give me some of it”
Framedragger currently
trying
to fight ceo who wants
to do an ICO, can relate somewhat
erlehmann: but i have not yet found out why people are unaffected. and why i do not feel
the same as
they do.
erlehmann: i believe at least some crypto currency marketing
triggers similar magpie instincts as earlier scams
phf: erlehmann: well, i said "parsing" i didn't say grammar.
there are different ways
to write a parser. btcbase uses a readtable dispatch based parser
to construct an in memory vpatch structure, i just checked, in about 90 lines of lisp. presumably if somebody wanted
to write a parser using yacc,
they'd have
to write a lalr grammar for a vpatch
erlehmann: they no longer write roguelikes where you can shit yourself
to death
erlehmann: asciilifeform i see what you mean. i can not claim
to understand everything, but it looks saner
than C.
erlehmann: so
the synthesizer would stop if you did not
type fast enough
erlehmann: of course infix allows you
to have an incomplete expression – like “(a + b” without a closing paren
erlehmann: idiots reimplemented it
themselves using infix notation
phf: erlehmann: i
think what we're saying is
that validation for
the sake of validation is an incomplete solution for various reasons. you come from a position where you need
to convince people
that parsing is important, we're saying
that ~we know~ and ~we do it~, but we also
think
that it's not
the whole solution.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 23:00 asciilifeform: i was not going
to expand on
the 'p'
thread until
the proggy is done, but
this is probably a good
time
to say 1 more
erlehmann: asciilifeform so what does
this `p` do you wrote earlier of?
erlehmann: i do not understand
the question, care
to elaborate?
erlehmann: ad-hoc validation creates a lot of exit conditions
that interact with each other
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: yeah, after writing
that i recalled gossipd design and intentions (need
to generate a lot of keys, and if it
takes a month - so fucking be it)...
erlehmann: anti-pattern “shotgun parser”. draw
the processing diagram on
to
the wall. shoot at it with a shotgun. everywhere
the bullets hit, validate stuff.
erlehmann: asciilifeform mixing validation and processing code makes it harder
to reason about possible code paths. after
the recognizer you can be sure
that
the rest of
the system does not have
to handle anything.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger
the whole notion of "rsa keygen efficiency" is a little bit in
the vein of "cheapest wedding dress".
erlehmann: my answer would be: spy whips out recognizer, nukes everything from orbit if language of patchset does not match language
that is expected.
☟︎ phf: these days it has additional
twist of haskelization and provable grammars and such
erlehmann: asciilifeform by
that standard, everything is insane (i might even agree). LANGSEC is not planet-wide asepsis, it is washing hands before walking
to
the operating
table.
☟︎ phf: validating input is
the security community mantra
that i remember since i joined it in 99 or so
☟︎ Framedragger: asciilifeform: alright, will do later. given
that you quoted from
the concluding section however, makes me doubt whether my opinion will change. but will do.
phf: well,
that's why i referred
to
that djb paper about qmail. he stated both
the problem and
the solution, and his solution was essentially "compartmentalize", but when it comes
to parsers specifically it's something very aggressive. like a fixed length line reader
that dispatches on a single prefix character. not even a "grammar"
Framedragger: i don't believe
they are actually suggesting
that doing key gen on
third party is a good idea for user. discussion was about performance, no? (granted, did not read whole paper)
a111: Logged on 2017-05-31 14:17 asciilifeform: in recent sads, 'Our batch prime-generation algorithm suggests
that,
to help reduce energy consumption and protect
the environment, all users of RSA—including users of
traditional pre-quantum RSA—should delegate
their key-generation computa-
tions
to NIST or another
trusted
third party.
This speed improvement would also allow users
to generate new RSA keys and erase old RSA keys more frequently, limiting
the damage of key
theft.'
Framedragger:
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-31#1663689 << i believe you misquoted out of context.
the purpose of
that was
to (as you can see if you read
till end of para), "The challenge here is
to show
that secure multi-user RSA key generation can becarried out more efficiently
than one-user-at-a-time RSA key generation"
☝︎ erlehmann: what wrong end? it actually plugs both ends.
the parser and
the unparser.