log☇︎
174800+ entries in 6.764s
asciilifeform: as i reckon, same degree as the unsigned-message scenario
mircea_popescu: and i don't want "a degree" of deniability.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i do not wish to stay unmarked.
mircea_popescu: i don't follow.
artifexd: Hmmm.... this is not the project that I thought it was.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i think you misrepresent the importance of this. currently, I can tell. *I*. Because i'm me, specifically. if you signed, so could preet.
asciilifeform: when i grunt on the impalement pole, i will probably not be able to deny these words either, to the inquisitor, for the same reason
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i can tell, you sound just like him.
asciilifeform: i am not presently authenticated via 'gribble'
artifexd: The system would, without your interference, label the things I say and the things your artifex say as said by seperate entities.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla you know on reflection i'm the other way around ? i wouldn't irc with anyone i put my penis into
artifexd: Nothing I, as artifexd with my key, say will ever show up as said by the same entity as whatever you say with your artifex key.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform lives in a submarine and never connects to you or your friends. i give him my own version of the "Artifex" key. he signs it.
artifexd: I have a fingerprint. Or a public key. I give that fingerprint or key a name. Anything not that key or fingerprint won't match to the name.
mircea_popescu: if i get a fake key of you and sign it... it's good as far as the computer is concerned.
artifexd: That's why the fingerprint and the alias, right? Let the computer notice that the numbers don't match the the numbers that I identify as mircea.
kakobrekla: no sorry needed, its just that i dont put my penis into everyone that i would like to irc with.
mircea_popescu: if she starts doing evil shit like forwarding messages from obama, it'll look like obama: hey dudes, i smoke the c0k! to us,
mircea_popescu: how did lampelina come in ? kako added her to his node and said "hey, lampelina is this hot blondy I met in a bar."
artifexd: After the thing is up and running for 6 months. How does some insightful dude off the street get in? Look for a public (and thus completely untrusted) access ircd that will let him connect and hope to build an identity to the point that you say "hey insightful_dude_from_the_street", what's your ip address? I'll let you connect to me because you say useful
mircea_popescu: i have nfi who even runs altgribble. who is it ?
mircea_popescu: in the case at hand, i'd know you are you, but i wouldn't know dddddd is anyone in particular.
artifexd: The key in the wot has no relation AT ALL to the message I just received with a fingerprint.
artifexd: I mean as in trust the message
artifexd: Trust doesn't mean that I take bob's word as gospel.
mircea_popescu: i am aware the inept consensus today is to think that technology can solve trust.
artifexd: I would have to have a direct connection to bob in order to believe anything with his fingerprint.
artifexd: I would appreciate signed messages so that I could have some moderate assurance that bob is actually bob and not some asshole evil server.
asciilifeform: let's put it this way - if i wish for my words to successfully relay beyond my own node, i have to sign them with an ephemeral key
artifexd: Simple: I would sign all my messages so that if you told me that I said something that wasn't signed, I could legitimately call bullshit.
mircea_popescu: i mean, i understand, "it's how it's done". we're here because the current paradigm is - quite fundamentally - broken.
artifexd: Why would I sign messages? Why would I appreciate messages that I receive to be signed?
artifexd: Actually, as fast as I type single second resolution timestamps would be enough.
asciilifeform: this is why i suggested chaining.
artifexd: I still haven't processed the wot part of the spec. I'm still trying to understand why you wouldn't sign the messages. It seems to be asking for evil actors.
asciilifeform: i will let this point prove itself, but was willing to argue for it to possibly save mircea_popescu and artifexd some unnecessary sweat
asciilifeform: (i.e., just as their own live wotgraph behaves)
asciilifeform: i won't argue that wot moves ought to be retained for all eternity; but will say that some automatic caching is necessary
mircea_popescu: i still don't see there's a difference.
mircea_popescu: that's why if right now i change a rating, the old one's gone.
mircea_popescu: i really do not wish to hear how much some long gone loser trusts whatever long gone scammer.
mircea_popescu: i don't think you will find the computerized means to ensure immutability.
asciilifeform: disappear until i get plugged back in
asciilifeform: i think it is ludicrous.
mircea_popescu: i still can't possibly see what flaw you perceive with the wot part of gossipd
asciilifeform: wot, i'd say, falls somewhere between (or floating far in the state-space) from currency or mere words
mircea_popescu: i still dun see it.
asciilifeform: under the contemplated scheme, i may as well not bother to use wot then
mircea_popescu: i do not see it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, but you can sign it with yours, if you wish. which correctly reflects the situation. "here are the words of great X i attest to"
mircea_popescu: if i die tomorrow who will maintain my wot ?
asciilifeform: because i am me and not him
asciilifeform: and i can't sign it with a fresh mircea-nonce.
asciilifeform: aye i have an old list. but that's quite ad-hoc.
asciilifeform: let's see if i misunderstood something.
mircea_popescu: for all practical purposes i am his 3rd split personality, a figment of his rich imagination.
mircea_popescu: and if i am in your list and you in mine the same is preserved by gossipd.
artifexd: When you and I have a conversation on here (and gribble is around, and you ident to a key), then later you and I have another conversation (and, again, gribble is around and you ident to the same key), then I can trust that I am talking to the same person I was before.
mircea_popescu: moreover, i wish to take this opportunity and link the important point of the "unsheathe your sword". inasmuch as people proceed on the "user objectively exists" and then try to "create anonimity" the unavoidable result is "anonimity is hard lolz".
mircea_popescu: i can use it later.
mircea_popescu: well, i don't. i more often have sex with someone in the bus
artifexd: When a message A for B C comes over the wire, how can I trust that B actually said C?
assbot: Logged on 05-01-2015 17:59:47; davout: i was thinking rely on GPG and simply encode a nonce in the message
artifexd: There is not. I took that as an oversight.
artifexd: I refreshed the post page. :)
mircea_popescu: artifexd umm... i see it but not your comment.
artifexd: Which I can only assume means it ate my comment.
asciilifeform: before i learned of the wot that we now use.
asciilifeform: i've been wishing that folks would let go of it for quite some time.
asciilifeform: i doubt that this can be avoided entirely
asciilifeform: perhaps root of disagreement is that i originally contemplated something more along the lines of a very fast usenet, rather than potentially slow chat.
mircea_popescu: if i were to connect to irc with a 360 baud modem i would similarily lose messages.
artifexd: Sure it would. If you have a connection to another server, it will send you all the messages it gets. Although I imagine some manner of "screw you, you're too slow" code will be needed eventually.
asciilifeform: if i'm on a satellite modem, i doubt that one in ten messages of 5-second window will make it through to my node.
artifexd: An hour? Shit. I was thinking 5 seconds.
Apocalyptic: mircea, I get a timeout for both trilema and qntra, looks like we may have been banned, which is surprising because I didn't refresh the page too quickly
mircea_popescu: well i just responded...
artifexd: I could see the value in that if maintaining an unbroken history was important.
asciilifeform: i will argue that you will want to, in general, 'hash-chain' all of your public (type 'a' in my last visible comment) messages.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Well i imagine sufficiently resourceful turrorist would make a normal looking to X-Ray evil battery pack
mircea_popescu: i'd lobby for that if i were a battery maker.
mircea_popescu: artifexd i wonder if for some god-forsaken reason the shitgnomes never actually considered this obviousness.
ben_vulpes: i've not the mental horsepower to attack this right now. after tango tho.
mircea_popescu: suppose i make 50k 1btc txn. they don't fit in a 1mn block. they do fit in a 10mb block. what now ?
hanbot: BingoBoingo oh, i just thought i'd give the paragraph mp described a shot
ben_vulpes: anyways! i must off to tango lessons.
ben_vulpes: i still fail to see how you're going to make a txn that gets included in the large block chain and not the small block chain.
mircea_popescu: the attempt may fail, but the cost to me of this failure is not significant, so i can keep on trying until it succeeds.
mircea_popescu: now i have bitcoin separated in two addresses, one for each chain.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes if one block's large and the other small, all i need a tx that's included in the large block but not the small one. then doublespend it on the small one, which will be rejected necessarily by the large block blockchain
kakobrekla: https://twitter.com/rogerkver/status/552087758370775040 < still looking for trouble i see.
asciilifeform: artifexd: i will not belabour the point, i think you will arrive at the correct answers on your own. they will fall into place in your head.
asciilifeform: i'd suggest term 'of', and use mathematical notation subkey(ofkey)
mircea_popescu: but it's for as in, "i am doing in the name of x, ie, for x"
mircea_popescu: artifexd i guess in retrospect the use of "for" was misguided. chetty warned me, too.
mircea_popescu: artifexd use one more then, i answer't.
artifexd: I'm burning up a lot (ok, more than a few) credits on http://trilema.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/
mircea_popescu: i'd bet you but we can't use bitbet because it doesn't take gavin btc.
asciilifeform: actually i envision a department hastily assembled, of folks much like myself but underemployed, set to work on it.
mircea_popescu: fwiw i wouldn't use sub 4kb keys anyway.