log☇︎
174700+ entries in 1.377s
mod6: shit makes me so mad i want to punch two birds in the face: http://media.coindesk.com/2014/04/Gavin-with-cockie1.jpg
mircea_popescu: i had the feeling when i was 16 :D
mircea_popescu: anyway, on contemplation i actually see this as my finest work to date.
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> [] i won't argue that wot moves ought to be retained for all eternity; but will say that some automatic caching is necessary << wotchains, perchance?
ben_vulpes: forgive the dunce cap hanging over my eyes, but i'm entirely failing to see how this makes for an unrepudiable log of the forum.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes no but recall the thing itself i refer to. a pastebin contract was in fact proferred.
mircea_popescu: except once the few derps flaked, i had nobody to complain to.
ben_vulpes: i was commenting at the point in the discusison at which messages were unsigned. did messages become signed?
mircea_popescu: this identity, which may be me unless i deny it, proposes he will sign a contract so and so.
ben_vulpes: ah i guess the log only makes sense as maintained by someone in a wot
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> [] and if i am in your list and you in mine the same is preserved by gossipd. << means that if you want everything you say on the record, operate a server for your identity.
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> i like 'unscannable for', not because of any derping re: 'anonymity', but from sheer delight in the morale hit to enemy << this one in particular
mircea_popescu: "we were going to make it, so i told the wife, go ahead and get started, i'ma grab a paper"
asciilifeform: point of fact, i think i may have said quite enough just now, such that one may construct it.
asciilifeform: perhaps when i am hanged, it will be manufactured somewhere.
decimation: 'the thing' I mean
asciilifeform: decimation: i'd classify all 'one way radio' as a single category for purpose of the discussion re: algorithmic basics.
adlai: I guess serving up data
asciilifeform: i imagine mpex as consisting of three gurlz, in a box, in shifts, and a console.
adlai: I guess it's an example of something which could work equally well over udp, and just happens to use tcp for convenience
asciilifeform: adlai: the way i understand it, we have at least three people right here who came up with very similar - but different in important respects - attempted solutions.
asciilifeform: 'If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.' (richilieu)
decimation: but I do see the problem of broadcasting signed messages everywhere
decimation: it was a good discussion, I also found it stimulating
decimation: I did. I find myself liking ascii's hardened bedrock
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i think i read this.
decimation: I don't see why one couldn't route ircd on top of ascii's udp-wot-internet
mircea_popescu: i might be especially thick, but i don't actually understand what decimation is saying.
mircea_popescu: (i mean, as opposed to soft. it's not like twitter, follow X. it's the opposite, "send to X")
mircea_popescu: this part is finnicky. it shouldn't, ideally, but i don't see how it could be done.
artifexd: If you and I are online, unless we are both in each other's list, we will never direct-connect.
artifexd: "How many times do I have to explain this shit!"
mircea_popescu: i must say, incidentally, i thoroughly enjoyed this discussion.
asciilifeform: (i dare suggest that a node be referred to as 'cell', for extra lulz)
asciilifeform: (e.g., i may know that it is a machine at ip p.q.r.s with rsa pubkey K)
mircea_popescu: structure it and i'll show you how it assumes it.
mircea_popescu: this is paid for, somewhere, by someone. who is paying but me ? even if i can't show where it leeches me, it does. why should i ?
artifexd: I guess I like the default sign because I see myself as Panopticon. I don't talk much. But I watch and listen. Default-sign helps me.
asciilifeform: did i misunderstand, or did you say earlier that it would be a good thing if the street bomzh could not use pgp ?
mircea_popescu: i think i explained it half a dozen different ways, to exhaustion, but am at a loss as to why what seems obvious is not communicating itself.
asciilifeform: if i can grasp this, perhaps it will all make sense to my head.
mircea_popescu: "this is what i heard"
asciilifeform: nope. i fully understand that the latter is neither possible nor desirable
asciilifeform: i'd say 'generic bum' and 'mircea stripped of his clothing and cast adrift in shanghai' are different scenario, no ?
mircea_popescu: i do not care what "buts" and "ifs" you add.
asciilifeform: i'm concerned only in the particular corner case that he is actually my friend, who has been reduced to that condition by malefactors, but still remains in possession of his key.
asciilifeform: this inference is perplexing. i don't see how it follows.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu does not like the notion of nsa goon having a non-deniable tape of anything he catches. (i don't much, either...) asciilifeform does not like that it is generally customary to speak unsigned, and thereby nsa goon can put words into his mouth, and a certain number of people will believe them
mircea_popescu: i dun see any sort of dilemma.
asciilifeform: i won't argue that a working 'tor' would not have its uses, but it is a very different animal from an 'adult' rebirth of internet circa 1989
mircea_popescu: i don't see much has improved since the recording machine era. do you ?
mircea_popescu: fact is, they only do if you wish to implement them. i do not.
mircea_popescu: artifexd i do. it's the equivalent of making a weirdo reality where anyone who eavesdrops also has a recording device.
asciilifeform: and here is where i'm puzzled
artifexd: it allows third parties to construct undeniable chatlogs << while true, I don't see the issue with it
artifexd: No. It is continuity. I assign weight to what they say by my judgement. They assign continuity to what they say by signing it.
artifexd: nor I
asciilifeform: in mircea_popescu's current scheme, they still are signed, i'll point out. but ad-hoc, by the next hop node
asciilifeform: not so much 'attacks', but i for one was hoping to see this experiment as a beginning of the 'wot internet'
mircea_popescu: i dun see how any of these are serious avenues to attack gossipd.
mircea_popescu: i wouldn't mind seeing either of those.
mircea_popescu: as far as i recall, for as far as my own chatlog is concerned, it took them exactly an hour longer than it took me to decide it's enough.
mircea_popescu: ok, i frown at your friend, he demures, i delink him, you both are out.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform then you piss me off, i frown at your friend, you're out.
mircea_popescu: artifexd i ended up referring to your project as that.
mircea_popescu: i meant, what do you do to gossipd obvbiously.
artifexd: The torrents that I have run get 15-20 connections
mircea_popescu: i just meant, generally. i dun care for what, trying to see how this works in practice.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: is it merely my puny brain, but i still don't grasp the 'signed-default is bad because preet can steal a key.' if preet gets a hold of my key, he may as well have put a bullet through my hide, stuffed the corpse, and proceeded to live on as it
mircea_popescu: i dunno, he was kinda dumb.
asciilifeform: artifexd: an infamous judge where i live
asciilifeform: if signatures were expected, impersonation would be strictly a preet-stole-key-and-i-didnt-pull-pin-in-time matter.
artifexd: I think you're accused of being other people more often than you are impersonated.
asciilifeform: i, for one, would much prefer to have there be not the slightest chance that a fuckwit claiming to speak as me, but sans my key, can be believed
mircea_popescu: i have enough experience with it to know it does \exactly nothing.
mircea_popescu: i am impersonated all the time, on all sorts of venues.
artifexd: Not I
artifexd: I start up my little process, it makes a connection to one or eight other people and it just works through the magic of maths.
artifexd: I had imagined #b-a but where everyone is ident'd all the time. No impersonating anyone else is remotely possible.
artifexd: I had imagined few connections, more routing.
artifexd: I wasn't imagining so many direct connections.
asciilifeform: artifexd: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-01-2015#967274 << basic summary of the thing i was mainly on about. ☝︎
artifexd: Sure. I have no issue with that.
artifexd: I add the ip address to the key so when I start up, I have a place (or places) to look for you.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: when i sign my 'hello' i will have no idea where it will enter the network.
artifexd: Sure. Then the handshake doesn't go both ways, but the information shared is the same. I know you have the key you say you have. You know I have the key I say I have.
asciilifeform: let's say i communicate over courier.
artifexd: As a currently running gossipd, if I get a connection request with "I'm bob. Here's proof", then I accept the connection and add that ip address to my list for that key. (For later connecting to him)
artifexd: I would think that instead of a list of ip addresses you would have a list of pubkeys and each pubkey has one (or more) ip addresses assigned to it. When you start up gossipd, it calls out to all the ip addresses in the lists and says "I'm bob, proven by this signature. Prove you are alice, with cryptoproof". If the answering box responds appropriately, ☟︎
asciilifeform: in no small part because i cannot really picture my impalement or reprieve as hinging on attribution of what i've said
mircea_popescu: i don;'t see what in the spec would prevent anyone from so doing.
asciilifeform: i am quite ready to ephemeralkey-sign every line i have uttered in #b-a.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's a subplot i dun wanna enter into now - this is complex enough as it is - but suffice to say i am persuaded such situations are thermodynamiocally bound to narrow timespaces.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i am not thinking of an adversary. i am designing things correctly.
mircea_popescu: as far as it's in the form "either you or A X" the only answer is "i don't care."
mircea_popescu: well, not how i understand it at any rate.
asciilifeform: that's what 'deniability' means, unless i catastrophically misunderstand the concept
mircea_popescu: but i also have little interest in fighting the narrowing down. that's not really a good use of time.
mircea_popescu: i dun see how that'd be answered.
mircea_popescu: i want exactly what chat is : absolute deniability to the entire world, save your friends.