log☇︎
172100+ entries in 1.347s
thestringpuller: I love Lee Morgan, such an epic history to him.
davout: last 'electronic' music i got into was birdy nam nam
thestringpuller: I fucking love Jazz.
davout: i'm more of classical music and jazz guy
davout: i liked daft punk's first albums tho
davout: thestringpuller: i'm not really such an electronic music guy
davout: justusranvier: in your article you shouldn't be reasoning on the cost of including a transaction in a block as (cost of one block / number of transactions) but you should reason on the marginal cost of adding a transaction to an already existing block that i'm currently mining
davout: thestringpuller: i really like eventmachine
davout: i kind of dislike rails, too fat, too clunky, unless you have something that really fits the rest paradigm
davout: thestringpuller: i like sinatra, it's real simple, and there's very little magic
thestringpuller: davout: sinatra wasn't bad. now I'm learning rails.
davout: ben_vulpes: i meant "how do you know about my haricut?"
ben_vulpes: davout: well i've written java, i've written ruby, and i've had extensive interactions with the relevant "communities" (although only my local java "community")
davout: thestringpuller: i don't really know python so i can't really comment
STRML: I'm sure they were meant to make things easier but it never quite ends up that way
thestringpuller: it's easier to debug, but so is python in the same context I guess?
STRML: I echo your frustration with ruby. It's a nightmare trying to figure out some obscure part of the capistrano or chef DSLs
thestringpuller: davout: i'm using it for web apps at work. not really a web stack developer, but it's not as bad as php but still doesn't taste good.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i also unload the dishwasher in the morning and turn the lights off at night.
davout: thestringpuller: i don't know man, who am i to know your personal tastes? :-)
ben_vulpes: i derp through apple's code signing shitshow so that they can focus on writing moar softs
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: i think ben_vulpes writes softs for apple's stuff commercially ?
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: "would you like a mac or win machine?" "You mean which two bowls of shit would I like to eat?"
davout: "you want to track your code on git and code with other folks? fuck you, i'll make this massive xml piece of shit completely unmergeable"
davout: "you want to organize your code with folders? fuck you, i'll store them randomly and index them in some massive xml turd"
thestringpuller: davout: i see
BingoBoingo: http://i.imgur.com/31X7V0J.jpg
davout: ben_vulpes: my worst nightmares are those i'm forced to use xcode
ben_vulpes: i can't spot *every* scam
ben_vulpes: i'm submitting builds to apple
diametric: real..i mean weird reason.
diametric: now i'm good
Pierre_Rochard: davout: I agree, the moat between bitcoin and the “substitutes” is _enormous_
asciilifeform: and i'd love to fly on an f-35 with gigantic, fart-flaming pigs instead of engines.
davout: i would've loved seeing him actually elaborate on asciilifeform's questions
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: i find it odd that you are interested in inclusion on the user end (transactions) but not the node end
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: I agree, but in this case I think Bitcoin’s competitive advantage is 100x, and transaction fees are a relatively small part of that, so if they were $0.50 instead of $0.05, adoption rate would decrease by let’s say 0.01%.
ben_vulpes: <gavinandresen> asciilifeform: I don’t want to rescue anybody, I want as many people as possible to Get the Bitcoin Religion! Can I have an AMEN? << good fucking god
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: I think if you went to a VC with a business plan of “We’re going to raise prices until we start losing customers” the VC would tell you that is a huge mistake if you’re a high-growth thing-a-ma-bob
gavinandresen: asciilifeform: I don’t want to rescue anybody, I want as many people as possible to Get the Bitcoin Religion! Can I have an AMEN?
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: … because driving up real Bitcoin prices is why I think we should do everything possible to encourage widespread adoption
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: the only way I see is to regularly test at what tx fee the substitution begins happening, and increase it at the margin (say 20%) whenever the top percentile of fees starts hitting it. Yes, that would involve perhaps semi-annual block size limit increases and an element of judgement. I still see it as a better solution than a much-too-high limit or a contrived algorithm
davout: gavinandresen: “patches welcome" <<< i don't use your wallet tbh
davout: gavinandresen: i'm completely with ben_vulpes "the notion that the wallet code should be responsible for setting fees is utter braindamage." on one hand it's not the wallet responsibility, and on the other hand that has nothing to do with the protocol
gavinandresen: davout: I have no idea if the would cooperate enough to make that happen.
gavinandresen: asciilifeform: ok, answers to your questions: I don’t know how many need to implode. And I don’t know what kind of brain damage.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i do believe i succeeded in ultimately pulling his wings off.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: ok. I’d like to brainstorm more about how you would set the maximum block size— I don’t want the developers setting it every two months, but I dont’ see a way to make fee revenue per block drive it (because the real-world bitcoin exchange rate is so variable)
asciilifeform: i, for one, would simply like some non-weasel answers to a few basic questions.
kakobrekla: and i wasnt even insulting.
asciilifeform: i suspect that he is ignoring most or all of us.
asciilifeform: i can almost imagine some fellow advocating the urgency of bringing down megatonnes of gold from the asteroid belt, because failing this, a great many 'gold users' may take to using paper certificates 'as substitute'
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: If I understand your argument correctly, you’re saying that the elasticity of demand is so great that fee maximization will be insufficient anyway, so try finding another solution now. That’s a pretty good argument, I think we should see what happens to fee revenue growth to validate it. If, say, the average fee goes up to 0.0004 btc and doesn’t budge from there, but anecdotally we hear that
kakobrekla: too slow i am, this cake is hindering me
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: I am not. I just see a “too low” long term hash rate as the greatest risk of ruin Bitcoin faces, and it ought to be minimized before all other considerations
ben_vulpes: <gavinandresen> Pierre_Rochard: I believe the goal should be to maximize the value of Bitcoin for everybody << you're fired.
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: I think that our disagreement on that premise precludes agreeing on anything downstream of that
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: I believe the goal should be to maximize the value of Bitcoin for everybody
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: You started with a premise that I reject, by the way: I do not believe that a goal should be to maximize miner revenue
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: if wallets could deal with that I’d be more open to running the experiment, although I still think it is a terrible idea to shut out ANY reasonable use cases at this early stage of Bitocn’s life
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: i can't afford 'mercedes' so my 'honda' is a fairly good substitute for the machine. but where might one obtain a cheaper, more plentiful ersatz substitute for bitcoin ?
gavinandresen: Anybody be offended if I ignore ben_vulpes? distracting me….
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: I think Bitcoin’s overall value proposition is so overwhelming that what’s hampering Bitcoin adoption is not tx fees, it’s just the Lindy effect of it being around long enough
ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: adoption is for the masses. i don't give a single fuck about the masses. bitcoin is not for them now, nor will it ever be.
asciilifeform: i'd much like to know
ben_vulpes: it's unnecessary and i reject it.
ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: i'm pointing out that the only acceptable patch for wallets is total removal.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: … I misstated: that will influence the maximum possible block size....
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: I think we’re there: http://hashingit.com/analysis/39-the-myth-of-the-megabyte-bitcoin-block
artifexd: Yeah. I found the article through my own education. I wanted to see if it had already been discussed in here.
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: yes, I would
asciilifeform: gavinandresen: i have read it.
gavinandresen: davout: oh, the IBLT stuff? yes, that’d make propagation O(1), and that’s what I mean when I say “when that is fixed by protocol changes"
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: I think the limit that miners self-impose would not hold. I think we see that today
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: I think you’re confusing the limit miners self-impose with the hard-coded upper limit
davout: gavinandresen: "okey dokey, then we might not have much to talk about if you want to stick with OpenSSL bugs that were included in the protocol by mistake." <<< actually i distinctly remember mike hearn telling me how that particular bug was part of the protocol and how it somehow justified not putting any effort towards actually specifying anything, in a spec, not in code
gavinandresen: felipelalli: that’d be a fine way to roll out the change; I think gmaxwell and sipa prefer that plan.
ben_vulpes: well i can tell you right now there is zero support around here for changing the protocol in any way.
gavinandresen: MP will bring all the drama :-) I try hard to be drama-free.
ben_vulpes: i smell drama
gavinandresen: I came here so you can tell me how I’m going to ruin bitcoin (again…) ☟︎
diametric: nubbins`: I've thoroughly enjoyed the woodcollector posts.
diametric: I'll give it some more time.
davout: "that's the main thing i'm constantly impressed by, his demeanor is exactly right for the position he's in. he's a role model to us all, a modern day gandhi so to speak. ;)"
kakobrekla: i noticed when i was coding that keyservers tend to go down a lot
undata: "I own this house."
mike_c: i suppose his point is along the lines of "mpex controls the coins it is holding, but account holders own them".
thestringpuller: i thought the french frowned upon "american" food
mircea_popescu: no it's perfect, i have a lunch meeting too.
mircea_popescu: nothing about your own intellect, experience, competence or otherwise merit justifies me even knowing your fucking name. you're nobody in the plainest sense, i can throw a rock in any town in america and probably hit two of you!
mircea_popescu: http://fr.anco.is/2015/gavineries/ << someone put it up on reddit ? i don't recall if dman was ever there.
davout: i guess the translator ran it by several actual frenchologists
mircea_popescu: actually i suppose thois belongs there.
mircea_popescu: "i want to tear down this wall". "why ?" "it opresses me". "the wall keeps the outside out" "OH SO YOU ARE SAYING WE SHOULD PUSH IT FURTYHER IN ?"
thestringpuller: so I can read Snowpiercer in french.
mircea_popescu: i dun like so much about my eyes how they miss things :D
mircea_popescu: damn i missed that.
mircea_popescu: davout i don't like so much about your blog the fact there's no clear mention of the date.
nubbins`: i know he's not a shill and he's not a fool, but beyond that... shrug
thestringpuller: i think asciilifeform submitted patch to gut all of it out.