log☇︎
140900+ entries in 4.91s
mod6: <+ascii_field> mod6: anything that requires the operator to even know that routers exist is inapplicable for pogo << yeah was reading what you guys were saying. basically why I didn't bring it up. too hard for mom & pop.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 i think this is related to "askl your isp" << yeah.
mircea_popescu: mod6 i think this is related to "askl your isp"
assbot: So I found the libertard motherlode on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1TjpCCB )
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1191281 << actually was on trilema. http://trilema.com/2015/so-i-found-the-libertard-motherlode/ ☝︎
mod6: maybe you set your router to respond to this? i dunno. was a passing thought.
mod6: as dumb as it sounds, i thought about ICMP 13 (dispite it being often fw'd) and checking TS against default route.
mircea_popescu: actually that's not so horrible as i thought.
decimation: trinque: I've tried too
mircea_popescu: no i really wish to see this
ascii_field: realize, i don't have a better solution than ntp. but it has to be done sanely (no dns; builds under musl or uclibc; doesn't introduce more than a few dozen lines of code; and picks from $bigint ip on powerup; and sanity-checked from blockchain )
decimation: maybe I should start watching venus too ☟︎
decimation: I was yes
ascii_field: i don't want dns in there. anywhere.
mircea_popescu: for one thing : it costs us 20k to deploy 1k of these. i doubt hitler wants to ruin his ntp for 20k
mircea_popescu: i;m not a great fan either ; nevertheless i suspect it is a marginally better solution than the current best which is "just taker block".
mircea_popescu: jurov i mean, pogo asks for ntp time, malicious server sayus "ask a.b.c.d" pogo asks.
mircea_popescu: jurov i think there is at least one attack where lamer is made to think victim is ntp server
decimation: I guess I percieve the reliance on an ntp server for time as being a much smaller attack surface than relying on operating bitcoind nodes for sync
jurov: i did not mean for pogo to promiscuously accept or even emit ntp packets!
ascii_field: the 100 usd 'pc engines' board i mentioned a few weeks ago does.
mircea_popescu: i was entertaining delusions of pogos being used as net propo for small home miners.
mircea_popescu: i don't feel too good about asking people who trust me to put a box on the net that's open to flooding people.
mircea_popescu: i thought from your prev line you weren't but anywa
jurov: i propose to wire electrodes up on the pogo chassis and synchronize time using chosen woman's periods
ascii_field: decimation: i discussed the problem with letting blockchain affect the time, earlier
decimation: I can tell him that a mutually observable passing of mercury in front of a star will be at 6pm
ascii_field: i.e. how many counts since last time mircea_popescu asked
mircea_popescu: i do not dispute they exist. what i said, again, was that if you use a nist table you're basically querying ntp.
mircea_popescu: decimation what i said was that if you use usg-supplied cutouts for that reduction, you're just doing a roundabout ntp call. might as well ask directly
decimation: nobody has told me why I can't observe the position of the sun in the sky, use today's date, and reduce the time
decimation: I'm telling you things I"ve been told
mircea_popescu: last i looked into it my isp actually fed you time, on special port.
mircea_popescu: in other news i am pleased to inform the general public that my pyromania is progressing nicely.
ascii_field: see, i almost guessed.
decimation: I'm not sure how simple it would be to implement
ascii_field: evidently i failed to make the minor point here
mircea_popescu: like the housewives, you know, "oph, i don;t care about the crisis, my husband does all that money stuff" "orly ? shut up and sit down, goose."
punkman: I don't see how lamport clock would help
mircea_popescu: i dunno why people keep mushin them together
decimation: I didn't realize that usg owns time now too
mircea_popescu: no, we're friends with hilbert, and i don't think it's a bad idea, either.
ascii_field: yes, possibly i triggered somebody's allergy by mentioning a maths dude
mircea_popescu: i think it was eastern european folklore
mircea_popescu: but i think we eventually will.
mircea_popescu: i think it's prolly premature
mircea_popescu: i am maybe not the first but definitely not the last to admit when satoshi did the dumb. nevertheless, here he did no such thing. there is no alternative known to literature, and you can't fault a man for not coming up with a novel star.
ascii_field: let's imagine, briefly, that i ~do~ find. ☟︎
ascii_field: i agree, this is very much a 'go, find' rather than 'sure to be found'
mircea_popescu: which is why i say.
ascii_field: perhaps i will need more ice cream to work through this one
ascii_field: not that i seriously disagree with mircea_popescu's intuition, but it is not obviously clear to me that we're speaking of a perpetuum mobile
mircea_popescu: so i have.
mircea_popescu: didja miss the line where i said you can't have a statistical sample of one ?
ascii_field: i blame retardatoshi
mircea_popescu: i blame you.
mircea_popescu: yes i realise. but at least these are our evil nodes rather than obama's evil nodes.
ascii_field: and i still think that dependence on political time is a serious flaw in bitcoin proper
ascii_field: that this was a constraint, i warned from day 1
mircea_popescu: anyway, not that i'm saying this must be done or anything. but i do not think it'd be the end of the world if it has to be.
mircea_popescu: it's not that i don't appreciate your intellectual purity. it's merely that things must be made as correct as possible and no correcter than that.
ascii_field: thing is, i can easily see these becoming 99% of the relay mass
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 15:02:31; asciilifeform: i will leave this with one more analogy: why did marching armies use drummers, instead of having each man push the next fellow, like in a crowded train ?
mircea_popescu: i daresay this is within engineering tolerance.
mircea_popescu: well, i suppose maybe it can, but show it to me ?
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: i can see where you're going. but it still can be sunk
mircea_popescu: lemme model this maybe i'm saying it stupidly.
mircea_popescu: i have. but tell me again.
mircea_popescu: i mean, by siomething running on the box in question
ascii_field: i said this
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: yes, though i've forgotten the exact number. 500MHz i think it was.
ascii_field: the idea, as i understood it, was to let folks set up nodes without human committment
danielpbarron: isn't there supposed to be a way to send commands to the pogo? otherwise how is it useful to me as a "full node" if I can't query it for blocks/transactions and relay new ones I have created for it?
ascii_field: i am not sure how this improves on anything
mircea_popescu: i am sorry you can't have candy kalash.
ascii_field: what, i'm to poll it ?
mircea_popescu: ascii_field i know i'm fed up with random shit depending on random shit, but it's not mere stupidity. it's just them trying to make sure shit permeates everywhere.
trinque: I've half considered trying to stop using the web so much, aside from maybe syncing certain sites to a local box.
trinque: I will never mock stallman emailing himself static html ever again.
trinque: now that the de-dockerization is complete, I may have it announce its current balance along with newly uploaded deeds
trinque: I see 0.1028202 BTC
jurov: oh i see
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 04:08:49; decimation: asciilifeform: https://github.com/zrm/snow < I thought this could be it, but then saw the deps list
trinque: I cannot see how this tool does not exist
trinque: I'm not even going to share the result; just take a pen and go nuts on a piece of paper and you'll have it
trinque: asciilifeform: I got clang to fart out a graphviz dot file; so far, every tool that can eat the thing results in a horrid ball of yarn
punkman: "I have intentionally adjusted my teaching materials as the political winds have shifted." "While I used to pride myself on getting students to question themselves and engage with difficult concepts and texts, I now hesitate. What if this hurts my evaluations and I don't get tenure?"
assbot: I'm a liberal professor, and my liberal students terrify me - Vox ... ( http://bit.ly/1J2tArT )
jurov: in companies where i did sysadmin, outgoing email was prone to slow everything to crawl with ADSL, and obv setting limits on everyone's email clients was impractical
thestringpuller: i don't understand why I should have to set iptable rules
thestringpuller: punkman: jurov i can do up to 600kbps on torrents without seeing constipation
punkman: I can barely do 20-30kbps up without router getting constipated, at least when seeding torrents
thestringpuller: but the main issue is that my upstream limitations are greater restricted than downstream, so when I relay blocks and tx data esp. when mempool is getting big, it chokes me from doing anything remote (like ssh is even slow)
decimation: I don't get it, why do we need to run the ntp daemon to use ntp?
thestringpuller: jurov: if i had a pogo i would connect it to the neighbors unsecured wifi XD
jurov: i don't see where to find 5000 ppl that would tolerate such bw hog
thestringpuller: so i can stream music from my library. these people don't know what they're talking about.
thestringpuller: my internet is drained right now relaying blocks, I had to shut my node off
asciilifeform: jurov: again, i was speaking of ddos in the sense of 'if it is trivial to take out pogo with a nudge that no one else will notice, it will be done'
shinohai: I just pay for business class internet so no one bothers me about my activities