midnightmagic: Do they sell to just one customer? If yes, detectably, stomp. If no, great, everyone benefits.

midnightmagic: If you're an asic that just tok everyone's money publically to attack the network?

midnightmagic: If you're an end-customer, you pay most of the full retail price.

midnightmagic: Diablo-D3: If you think you're right, give your head a shake. It's trivial to do. It takes about 3 months to upgrade 95%, and that's just for a non-impact lame-o ddos fix with no known sightings in the wild.

midnightmagic: Luceo: You're just talking about a normal 50% attack now.

midnightmagic: Luceo: If you've amassed all the different asic so you only take a 1/3 hit, your ability to attack is lessened.

midnightmagic: Luceo: You're missing my point. Right now, they only mine if they mine using the current hash algo.

midnightmagic: And if they do? It changes, everybody adapts, and laugh when we discover all the special asic out there have become useless and the network contracts by X TH

midnightmagic: In fact, I'm pretty sure someone recently already has gotten >50%. But if they play nice and don't screw with the network trust, then it doesn't matter does it?

midnightmagic: Still, it doesn't matter, all it takes is a suspicion, or an attempt to make use of the >50%.

midnightmagic: you're not listening. the entire network can be mapped out and all mining hashrate identified. neither of you have read the academic papers describing how to do this or you wouldn't be arguing with me.

midnightmagic: in fact, yeah, it can. it doesn't even take very many listening posts to do it.

midnightmagic: you haven't read the papers. yeah, the network can.

midnightmagic: And everyone who doesn't do it, gets screwed when they're discovered.

midnightmagic: Assuming what Luke says, is true.

midnightmagic: What that means is simple: 5 ASIC vendors = 5 secret algos. asic vendor misbehaves? hash algo switches to support the other 4 (who are now building individually different blocks) and #5 == paperweight.

midnightmagic: "Edit: There is no single "secret alternative algorithm" being issued/given to ASIC vendors. They are all expected to come up with their own and not share it outside the company except in an emergency."

midnightmagic: "That is not necessarily true. ASIC vendors are advised to implement an alternative algorithm they can switch to in case of emergency like this. If the community felt it necessary to block out ASICMINER (or some other hostile ASIC hoarder), the other ASIC vendors would then publish their secret alternative algorithms, and Bitcoin could be made to support those."

midnightmagic: "That is not necessarily true. ASIC vendors are advised to implement an alternative algorithm they can switch to in case of emergency like this. If the community felt it necessary to block out ASICMINER (or some other hostile ASIC hoarder), the other ASIC vendors would then publish their secret alternative algorithms, and Bitcoin could be made to support those."

midnightmagic: Here I'll quote: "That is not necessarily true. ASIC vendors are advised to implement an alternative algorithm they can switch to in case of emergency like this. If the community felt it necessary to block out ASICMINER (or some other hostile ASIC hoarder), the other ASIC vendors would then publish their secret alternative algorithms, and Bitcoin could be made to support those."

midnightmagic: Yeah right. A hardfork later and every user who listens to Gavin when he says "Hey these guys can now attack the network, upgrade now to avoid it," makes the old fork die.

midnightmagic: Diablo-D3: Then what's Luke saying in the asicminer thread?

midnightmagic: Hey don't hate the playa, hate the game.

midnightmagic: And the naughty conglomerate that went overboard into a super fancy mining contract because they discovered nobody's willing to buy their device and fund competition against themselves? They go away and lots of paperweights mine on a scamcoin altchain.

midnightmagic: And everyone accepts them.

midnightmagic: And every repsonsible asic device can now mine its own type of block.

midnightmagic: bitcoin devs change the hashing algo.

midnightmagic: And if those vendors end up just being one giant self-mining masturbation circlejerk?

midnightmagic: Chaang-Noi: I will in a moment, I'm in pacific time.

midnightmagic: Every vendor was told, as Luke-Jr said, to put a small additional secret piece of logic into their asics.

midnightmagic: Whose software do you think the users are going to use?

midnightmagic: You're thinking in terms of miners.

midnightmagic: Which given that most people don't grasp the nature of how anticompetitive what they're planning on doing is, is far more likely to happen.

midnightmagic: And at that point, doing their best to ensure tha the bitcoin devs stomp them.

midnightmagic: In other words, customers *should* if they were smart, be forcing them into a purely self-mining contract.

midnightmagic: But they'll mine less if nobody ever buys their devices.

midnightmagic: to starve them out as much as possible so they aren't able to mine as effectively.

midnightmagic: No, because it is in the customers' best interest to buy OTHER PEOPLES' asics.

midnightmagic: You make a device, if you didn't mine 12TH and then 50TH, it would have made x more profit. If you DO mine, with your customers' own money (which is in their business plan) you are reducing the value of those devices.

midnightmagic: That's totally, totally irrelevant.

midnightmagic: And show absolutely zero ability to grasp even the notion of what that means.

midnightmagic: Why would I? I'll send my money to people who don't cannibalize their customers' potential profit.

midnightmagic: Neither of you know what you're talking about.

midnightmagic: mircea_popescu: AS A SHAREHOLDER. Not as a customer buying their devices. In other words, they're cannibalizing their future earnings selling devices by doing the dick move of mining for themselves.

midnightmagic: Diablo-D3: It's in their business plan.

midnightmagic: Diablo-D3: Why would I support a business which intends to compete directly against other miners?

midnightmagic: It is ENTIRELY a party to this discussion, because that's the genesis of my objection!

midnightmagic: mircea_popescu: Look at it from the customers' perspective. Why the hell would I buy a mining tool from the same company who's already staked the choicest claim and mined it for all it's worth?