log
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11284 @ 0.00084669 = 9.554 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10050 @ 0.00084122 = 8.4543 BTC [-]
benkay: http://www.btcoracle.com/leaderboard.php
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 7350 @ 0.00010546 = 0.7751 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 313 @ 0.001 = 0.313 BTC
benkay: u guise let me tell you about mastercoin
benkay: its gonna distribute your butt
benkay: all your butts are distribute but only on mastercoin lolol
Duffer1: omgwheredoisendmybtc?!
Duffer1: i need to get on dat train
thestringpuller: ;;bc,24hprc
gribble: 667.50
Duffer1: just need my doges to x2 before i get in on that
monolithik: doge to da moon
monolithik: seriously though some guy is making an altcoin builder, theres gonna be tens of thousands of them fairly soon
monolithik: https://forum.btcsec.com/index.php?/topic/2858-programma-kriptokonstruktor-cryptonit-all/
the20year: hopefully i can get mine up prior :(
Duffer1: rentalstarter coin? :D
the20year: YEs
the20year: Property & Asset backed cryptocoin
Duffer1: sounds like bitshares
the20year: Yep
Duffer1: ah
the20year: Pretty similar to how they're doing it, except that there's a extra # of coins per block found that goes back to the 'foundation' ala freicoin. Said coins are used to buy property/investments, which then cashflow back to the coinholders
Duffer1: that's interesting
monolithik: who controls the 'foundation'?
Duffer1: probably rentalstarter
the20year: So, then those coins are invested, saved, used to further the coinage. The idea is to have a foundation similar to the bitcoin foundation, but the financing for said foundation would be significantly higher because with each coin that's mined, more go back to the foundation then which invests in things that matter
the20year: The BoD of RentalStarter
Duffer1: which could be a huge problem in the states unless you register as a money transmitter
monolithik: so its like an REIT, but with cryptocurrency.
the20year: The idea is that the investments will be 'anonymous' in the sense that the average coinholder only gets a monthly report with profit/loss figures, decisions the board makes, they don't have direct access to the properties. However the directors/founders will actually go to the properties and inspect them, providing reasonable insight into how efficient the businesses are.
the20year: Duffer, our corporate attourney has already greenlit it
Duffer1: i'm shocked
Duffer1: but then i'm not a lawyer so.. :P
monolithik: well, I'm just not sure of the gain you get from using the cryptocurrency over a regular REIT. I feel like a coin makes sense when the actual work to be performed is computational in nature, such as verifying transactions, storing data, etc.
the20year: Money flows back to the actual coinholders through active buy orders on public markets in terms of BTC/LTC, which then drives the actual coin prices up relative to the typical basket of crypto currencies, providing more value. At some point in the next 5 years, we then would set up a coin exchange where coinholders can exchange coins for goods/services produced from the businesses. It's more than just housing, I want far
monolithik: yah, I'm just not sure why you need your own coin to do it. Seems like you could do it entirely with BTC/colored-coins and get the same level of anonymity, without having to maintain your own blockchain
Duffer1: and gain the protection of the obscene hashrate
monolithik: it just sounds like a normal real estate investment scheme, with a cryptocurrency mashed into it for no apparent reason
the20year: easier to get past SEC
monolithik: ... I'll take your word for it
the20year: I'm just in the theoretical stages, the other option is just to issue more shares of rentalstarter like we've done
the20year: I think a crypto would do better just due to where the market is on cryptos, many people are getting rich overnight with them, it'd beasier to gain investments that way than begging for people to buy shares
Duffer1: possibly
the20year: cap rates for #3-#10 is several hundred million dollars, yet few if any of them do anything better than Bitcoin
Duffer1: but even patent nonsense is getting thousand btc caps
Duffer1: are getting*
Duffer1: is getting?
Duffer1: ffs
the20year: on what exchange?
Duffer1: havelock
the20year: Hmm
monolithik: market cap is meaningless when you float a small amount of your coin, then place a bunch of buy/sell orders at high prices to give the appearance of value
the20year: Well in that case I Might consider HL, i'd realy like to fund upwards of $1m on the next round
Duffer1: cryptostocks.com
the20year: We've done great with RS so far, but banks are being absolutely idiots to deal with right now
Duffer1: when are you looking to raise the capital
the20year: Next month
the20year: we've already had $92k worth of capital raised, relative to USD we've more than doubled it since July, $92k to $193k
Duffer1: Ciphertrade is launching beta next month, should be live by first of feb
the20year: That's the exchange I really want ot list on , but have had a few guys tell me that it's gonna take too long
Duffer1: i know they're finished with penetration testing, but beta was pushed back to sort out ddos protection
the20year: If I knew it would be done by Feb 1st I'd wait
monolithik: if you're open to issuing some shares via a colored-coin, chromawallet will hopefully be ready to use on mainnet by the end of january.
the20year: I'm open to just about anything right now
monolithik: http://chromawallet.com/
the20year: My brother is looking at doing a 2nd round at $2m-$3m , so i don't see why $1m would be impossible
ozbot: ChromaWallet
Duffer1: pm woodtech or benny on litecointalk they could probably give you an accurate timeline for their launch
the20year: who's benny?
Duffer1: ceo of buy-a-hash
the20year: Nevermind, I didn't know he went by benny, he's sitting 20ft from me
the20year: he doesn't know, i keep telling him to get me in touch with whomever runs ciphertrade and he never does
Duffer1: lol
Duffer1: woodtech is kate wood, she's heading up the project
the20year: i think i messaged her on bitcointalk , no response
Duffer1: she's VERY busy, and pretty crabby, that's why i recommended benny :P
the20year: and he doesn't know :D
the20year: let me go ask again
Duffer1: he doesn't know you're rentalstarter?
Duffer1: and you didn't know he'll have a stake in the new exchange?
Duffer1: yall need to work on your communication lol
the20year: i knew he had a stake, but he never updates me
the20year: he's been busy with this red fury/bluefury crap
Duffer1: ah
the20year: ujdolugfiodufe8uiiusdiuedw
Duffer1: you could always do what TaT did with Neo & Bee, offer a multi exchange ipo
the20year: Yeah
thestringpuller: ;;seen smickles
gribble: smickles was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 4 weeks, 4 days, 5 hours, 2 minutes, and 30 seconds ago: <smickles> wtf bet on the price rising rather than buying more or buying an option (or similar)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4600 @ 0.00083477 = 3.8399 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8900 @ 0.00083379 = 7.4207 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14147 @ 0.00083557 = 11.8208 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2650 @ 0.00083228 = 2.2055 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [DEALCO] 123 @ 0.0014889 = 0.1831 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16900 @ 0.00083595 = 14.1276 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9500 @ 0.00083228 = 7.9067 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 343 @ 0.002918 = 1.0009 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4205 @ 0.00083143 = 3.4962 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 200 @ 0.00083204 = 0.1664 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.3209899 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.3209799 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 13 @ 0.32351881 = 4.2057 BTC [+] {6}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 7 @ 0.048999 = 0.343 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 85 @ 0.002917 = 0.2479 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1500 @ 0.00083683 = 1.2552 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: ;;later tell mircea_popescu "Have a translation for your homosexuality article up. Your comment system did not like the full text http://trilema.com/2010/tipologiile-homosexualitatii/#comment-97094 "
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6027 @ 0.0008351 = 5.0331 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1550 @ 0.00083396 = 1.2926 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27850 @ 0.00083633 = 23.2918 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9850 @ 0.00083396 = 8.2145 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 10 @ 0.305012 = 3.0501 BTC [-] {8}
IVANUS: hey
IVANUS: Anybody there?
IVANUS: Hey . any one are used this graphs http://bitcoin-wisdom.net/ .. everybody say it's Amazing , But i don't know how can i used it
monolithik: don't click on that link, IVANUS has been trying the same virus link in #bitcoin
BingoBoingo: Ah, sucks to use WIndows
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 29 @ 0.2991524 = 8.6754 BTC [-] {10}
BingoBoingo: I can confirm IVANUS is just trying to spread a windows wallet stealer.
kakobrekla: well, i guess it justifies the anus in his name
monolithik: I reported the link to google.
monolithik: hopefully you should get a warning in chrome when you try to visit in a few days.
kakobrekla: aha
kakobrekla: NSA wants to protect its users from backdoors so they can have them
kakobrekla: the good news is we are not paranoid, everyone IS trying to kill us
nubbins`: hi folks
kakobrekla: hi
monolithik: nubbins I think you forgot to log in
nubbins`: nope, i'm all logged in :D
kakobrekla: nubbins` about half yirga and half harrar seems best so far
nubbins`: ah, you're making your own blends already!
BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: Who uses chrome except the NSA loggin shit logs?
kakobrekla: heh
nubbins`: little dusting of snow here last night: imgur.com/dtKh987
nubbins`: sorry, that may not highlight for some
nubbins`: http://imgur.com/dtKh987
ozbot: imgur: the simple image sharer
BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: I do want to than asciilifeform for his links to OpenGenera and lispmachine videos. I opened the link in the LISP browser and saw spam.
BingoBoingo: Assumed it was harmful.
BingoBoingo: nubbins`: Looks like a bit more than a dusing.
BingoBoingo: Haven't seen shit like that since I was in grad school in the ever so slightly north of where I am nao.
nubbins`: heh
nubbins`: supposed to be 20cm by noon-ish
nubbins`: hm, sounds like the wife is up
nubbins`: merry christmas, heathens
BingoBoingo: Did anyone else's favored liquor stores give them gifts when they picked up cigarettes yesterday?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 40 @ 0.00301014 = 0.1204 BTC [-] {6}
BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: I still can believe on the forum trust TradeFortress is only a quarter as bad as Garr255
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23375 @ 0.00083092 = 19.4228 BTC [-] {3}
BingoBoingo: Maybe one of them gets a mistrust discount for being a child?
kakobrekla: lol BingoBoingo
kakobrekla: but i think garr is even younger than tf
kakobrekla: afaik garr just went to college no, whats that, around 17?
BingoBoingo: Well, Garr is definitely around 19-22.
BingoBoingo: TF went from 28 when he smelled less bad to being 16-18 after the inputs hack.
BingoBoingo: i guess if you average it out TF is still older.
kakobrekla: lol
kakobrekla: wait he claimed to be 28 first then changed to 18?
kakobrekla: or you just guessing
kakobrekla: i thought the general word was early twenties
BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: I think TechCrunch called him 28 when they reviewed CoinChat as an obligation free way to get BTC
kakobrekla: aha
BingoBoingo: Then after the hack he claimed various ages that would be of legal minority
BingoBoingo: A decade younger than he claimed, back when he was solvent-ish
kakobrekla: at least he got himself a silver membership with the foundation
kakobrekla: that was the capt obvious red flag not to deal with the service
BingoBoingo: Here's the reference to being 28: Coinchat’s founder, a 28-year-old male freelance web developer based in Australia who (in keeping with Bitcoin’s shadowy origins) wishes to remain anonymous to avoid any Bitcoin associated “drama” or the threat of “doxxing”, tells TechCrunch the service has been up and running for about five months. -> http://techcrunch.com/2013/08/31/coinchat/
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.29799999 BTC [-]
kakobrekla: did he get doxxed after the 'hack?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.298 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: It seems so. Not that dox are useful for anything, but someone going by "Mt Dox" is trying to make a name off of this doxxing
BingoBoingo: And http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-08/bitcoin-site-hacked-founder-says/5078148 There he pretends to be a decade younger.
kakobrekla: >TradeFortress, who says he is not much older than 18, does not want to be identified because he is worried about his personal safety.
kakobrekla: that wouldnt be a minor any more anyway
kakobrekla: or is it 21 in aussie land
BingoBoingo: Who knows? May be Australasia is weird about such things.
BingoBoingo: Maybe he's an Abbo and rights/ages/responsibility are less concrete?
kakobrekla: seems like aussies think 18 the limit
kakobrekla: anyway i doubt anything will happen anyway
BingoBoingo: Any guessing on his age, ethnicity, or being a dirty Jewess became moot when he signed with GPG his declaration of default.
kakobrekla: hehe
BingoBoingo: Fuck the law and the law doing things. We'll ostracize him.
kakobrekla: who is we?
BingoBoingo: We is whoever We wants to be.
BingoBoingo: No one has to be we.
kakobrekla: yeah but he can just do /nick FotressTrade and make wallets.io
BingoBoingo: We doesn't have to be anybody either.
kakobrekla: 'the community' does not seem to be running out of coins yet unfortunatley
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5950 @ 0.00082733 = 4.9226 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: People just have to say fuck webwallets, and people who insist on node.js are lower than rats.
BingoBoingo: Maybe he learns a new framework and sneaks a new business model that isn't a web wallet.
thestringpuller: who got fucked using web wallets this time?
kakobrekla: its been like 4 years, people still get scammed via paypal
thestringpuller: blockchain got hacked?
kakobrekla: so i dont expect for ppl to stop using web wallets
kakobrekla: but they wont stop drinking and driving as well, so thats that.
BingoBoingo: Fuck him if e can be identified. If he can't, well he's a new n00b.
BingoBoingo: If he iden't then.. well... since default doesn't exist in bitcoin he's still a scammer until he makes people whole.
BingoBoingo: Eh, drinking and driving seems like a much safer lapse of judgement than using a web wallet.
kakobrekla: i guess it depends on how much you carry
kakobrekla: of either
BingoBoingo: In the worst case traffic cops have a price. The price of BTC though seems to make traffic cops seem... inexpensive?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 849 @ 0.00082733 = 0.7024 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: What do I know about the 'Murican justice system though? All I have ALLEGEDLY done is solicit one elected official to kill another (emphasis on ALLEGEDLY). Anyone could see that any two elected officials though could be sodomygos and bound by darker forces than a voter could summon.
BingoBoingo: (allegedly)
BingoBoingo: Everything in my situation seems to be under control though. I am in 'Murica and my skin is pale.
BingoBoingo: Why do we have to hurt so much, I can't decide. We are settling the final score.
BingoBoingo: For the record: Kakobrekla + Garr255 -1262
kakobrekla: so you are telling me im nobody?
kakobrekla: :)
kakobrekla: its not too far from the truth!
BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: I'm not telling you you are nobody. I say you are a good body. Thermos though....
BingoBoingo: HE says Garr is a major body
BingoBoingo: Even though he is a hella negative body
BingoBoingo: If BTC dies, it will be because of "In Thermos Tards Trust"
kakobrekla: dat forum is one of the easiest cash cows around
kakobrekla: or at least it was
kakobrekla: it might have ended
BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: Still sounds like it could be rich for people willing to abandon decency
kakobrekla: i was thinking more from thermost point of view but yeah i see what you mean and is also true
kakobrekla: i mean, he got kilos of btc from just keepin a forum up and he even fails at that
kakobrekla: doesnt get much simpler
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.28320001 BTC [-]
kakobrekla: i hear ads are not as hot as they used to be now though and id bet donations calmed down too.
BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: Well, occasionally maybe the barnacle grows bigger tan some of the whales?
BingoBoingo: I doubt ads can match their hottest from when it was TF and BFL fighting for slots, when they should have found sluts
kakobrekla: TF and BFL? the real battle was Tom vs BFL iir
kakobrekla: iirc
BingoBoingo: Donations seems to have gone full stop because the only reason to donate this past year was to scam.
BingoBoingo: Come on. TOm was over before Avolon "shipped for some definitions of shipped" in february. BFL is still living the lie.
kakobrekla: yeah regardless of that facts there was an advertising battle at the time of uncertanty
kakobrekla: sometime early 2013 i think
kakobrekla: twas posted here i reckon
BingoBoingo: Yeah. The advertising battle was hotter late 2013 though... (fuck that is already late 2013?)
kakobrekla: haha
kakobrekla: yeah its over.
BingoBoingo: B/(asic) vs. BFL was big, but TF vs. BFL seemed, on the forum, Bigger. THen again the forum sucks and continues to suck
kakobrekla: it seems i completley missed the latter battle
kakobrekla: but i guess you see one, you seen them all
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4537 @ 0.00081947 = 3.7179 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: Well, your slanderous soul seems to have forced you into observing an unnatural cleanliness.
kakobrekla: lol
BingoBoingo: And yes, every forum bidding war looks the fucking same.
kakobrekla: its all building up to my new brand name, SSSS
kakobrekla: twice as bad as SS
kakobrekla: we can ipo and have S.SSSS
nubbins`: snakey
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 7 @ 0.29899998 = 2.093 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HMF] 26 @ 0.02201885 = 0.5725 BTC [-] {7}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11500 @ 0.00080464 = 9.2534 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5400 @ 0.00080897 = 4.3684 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 18 @ 0.27920444 = 5.0257 BTC [-] {7}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 19 @ 0.27612 = 5.2463 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [DEALCO] 100 @ 0.00144 = 0.144 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3450 @ 0.0008001 = 2.7603 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HMF] 28 @ 0.02342091 = 0.6558 BTC [+] {5}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [DEALCO] 4285 @ 0.00132053 = 5.6585 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1100 @ 0.0008057 = 0.8863 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 310 @ 0.00291946 = 0.905 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9350 @ 0.00080649 = 7.5407 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 459 @ 0.00283501 = 1.3013 BTC [-] {8}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5350 @ 0.0008045 = 4.3041 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14725 @ 0.00081031 = 11.9318 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13000 @ 0.00080554 = 10.472 BTC [-]
pankkake: happy festivus!
KRS|Gotyawallet: I can't find my Festivus pole.
deadweasel: happy fuckmas?
deadweasel: ;;killsanta
gribble: Error: "killsanta" is not a valid command.
jurov: ;;gank santa
gribble: Error: "gank" is not a valid command.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 997 @ 0.00011 = 0.1097 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7860 @ 0.0008001 = 6.2888 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 15 @ 0.049999 = 0.75 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 3 @ 0.05 = 0.15 BTC [+]
Duffer1: merry holiday b-assets
deadweasel: verily
mircea_popescu: bwahaha what do my eyes read. so some nut with a ltc denominated pnb is "making an exchange" and that's where the noobdom is all excited to go ?
mircea_popescu: you people have what's technically known as a death wish.
mircea_popescu: no other way to put is.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 2 @ 0.072 = 0.144 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: pnb ?
mircea_popescu: pmb*
asciilifeform: aha
mircea_popescu: teh leading british entrepreneur that was born last june and did a... leading green it company.
mircea_popescu: it's disease.
mircea_popescu: it has to be a mental disease. no other way to explain this.
Duffer1: oh ciphertrade?
mircea_popescu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kate_Craig-Wood << check out self-shipping wiki. arguably taaki's is better because at least he's original in his stupidity.
ozbot: Kate Craig-Wood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
mircea_popescu: Duffer1 yes.
asciilifeform: well, eventually all the coin will be in the hands of people with brains.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no because they keep making doges.
asciilifeform: this endgame looks obvious.
mircea_popescu: endgame is at least 20 years away. the fuck im gonna do, that's my youth.
asciilifeform: p. t. barnum and carnegie can co-exist
mircea_popescu: "Ciphertrade is a fantastic new service that will change the way you work"Ciphertrade is a fantastic new service that will change the way you work.". does that "fantastic" only sound krameresque to me ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform NOT when barnum thinks he's carnegie and his visitors think they're there spinning the world.
mircea_popescu: 24/12/13 Countdown reset due to delays, mailshot has copies of screenshots...merry xmas all
mircea_popescu: 13/12/13 ; Sadly the beta release we wanted will be delayed by a week or so, more details in the newsletter ; 27/11/13 We have the gui wireframes back from designers..
asciilifeform: the furnace still burns, steel still pours, no?
mircea_popescu: that's the news. this is how people think the reports of an it project look.
mircea_popescu: i have only one mouth and i must laugh!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, you're right, i've just gone through five minutes of disbelief. i'm fine now.
asciilifeform: the occasional luser falls into crucible; free carbon that day.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, i think this may well be why otherwise intelligent people decide bitcoin is beyond stupid. they probably go through this intellectual cycle, "o, let's examine the data re this thing. what's intel got ? o wait, what ? you say what ? did what ? what ?"
mircea_popescu: in the end it's just a blank stare with a "wat"
asciilifeform: that was more or less my first post on the subject
Duffer1: they appear to be making a try at a legal exchange
asciilifeform: microscope hammer.
mircea_popescu: Duffer1 what makes you think you are qualified to judge whether this is the case ?
mircea_popescu: there is nothing more deceiving than appearance. how do you judge ?
Duffer1: i'm not even a little bit, never claimed otherwise
mircea_popescu: this is the topic of expertise. man walks into a bank, appears to intend to start a business. hoiw do you decide if you finance him ?
Duffer1: they
mircea_popescu: this is the hardest job in all of banking, credit officer.
Duffer1: er
Duffer1: they 'appear' to be trying to go legal, but appear is my laymans perspective
mircea_popescu: understand, thinking is not a crime. not thinking however is. you can't just gloss over stuff.
mircea_popescu: well yes, but your laymans perspective can easily get you fucking killed.
mircea_popescu: does a guy in a pink hat appear to be a pimp ?
Duffer1: i don't disagree with you, i'm curious what the issue is though
mircea_popescu: i wish i could readily explain it somehow, save lots of people lots of pain.
mircea_popescu: ask me.
asciilifeform: what i meant earlier was, the 'doge' investors are going to do something idiotic with their coin, regardless of what happens
Duffer1: doge... investors....
asciilifeform: if not doge, then lolcatcoin, or whatnot
mircea_popescu: this is experimentally true.
mircea_popescu: Duffer1 you recall the guy a day or two ago with the "200% is 200% no matter how you cut it" ?
asciilifeform: but the people doing the fleecing, presumably have a bit more brain, and will do something moderately intelligent
asciilifeform: and so on, up the foodchain
Duffer1: yea poor guy :/
asciilifeform: the way i see it, it's rather like a farmer lamenting that a rotting deer carcass in his field is being eaten by maggots, rather than himself
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is an exceedingly difficult proposition. my current belief is that mostly they're stupid in a different way.
mircea_popescu: they're time-stupid rather than capital-stupid.
mircea_popescu: in the end scammer and scamee make a tuple.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the farmer is lamenting that the deer lays dead, no more.
mircea_popescu: for it is bambi, and bambi's someone's mom.
Duffer1: mircea_popescui wish i could readily explain it somehow, save lots of people lots of pain. <<<< perhaps worth another article where my ignorance is yet again immortalized on your blog? :P
Duffer1: i hang out in here to learn
mircea_popescu: that's fine, but i dunno how. at leasrt not yet.
mircea_popescu: but let me expound on the capital/time stupud tuple.
mircea_popescu: the sucker, let him be known as s, is in a rush. he has not the time to completely consider things, and this is built on a lengthy historical tradition of the same : he also "did not have the time" to properly consider functional analysis in highschool,
mircea_popescu: which he mostly didn't have the time t odo because in junior high he didn't have the time to properly consider fractions,
mircea_popescu: and as a result learning fa for him is "learn all calculus from fractions onward", which is easily months of HIS time (it'd be a lot less time for someone a lot more literate, because of the way economies of scale work in matters of the mind. however, this is not him)
mircea_popescu: so basically the sucker's life is this escalating avalanche of unpaid time debts which he keeps extending and extending for more and more ridiculous interest.
mircea_popescu: the scammer, let him be known as S, has been doing nothing but contemplating, the minutious detail that is otherwise irrelevant.
mircea_popescu: for whatever reason, such as having a bad attitude to authority coupled with a duplicitous nature, he has managed to both escape re-education and avoid actually putting his mind to useful purpose.
mircea_popescu: he is then stuck, but also unable to admit this to himself.
mircea_popescu: and he has no money, or more properly put, he's not making nearly as much as his less clever peers from kindergarten are making.
mircea_popescu: s naturally tries to use his relative advantage to defeat a problem, S equally so. together, they make a team. the alleged "theft" is nothing of the kind, teams reallocate resources all the time on common convention, which is hwat's happening here too.
mircea_popescu: the sad part of this otherwise heroic arrangement is, however, that it STILL doesn't work.
mircea_popescu: capital can be good. minutious attention to irrelevant detail can also be good. both need a lot of central thinking to actualise their potential utility,
mircea_popescu: and that's what the scammer can't, fundamentally, have.
mircea_popescu: the union becomes pernicious in that s's capital could be useful irrespective of him, but S's mental issues lock s out.
mircea_popescu: there we go, i'm happy with this model. it's a tuple.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HMF] 40 @ 0.02389999 = 0.956 BTC [+]
Duffer1: because s doesn't have time (or taken time to learn), he's doomed to be the s in the s + S = failure tuple
Duffer1: equation
mircea_popescu: well equally so for S, he's also doomed being part of that nonsense.
mircea_popescu: the irony here being that if you take the list of 100+ scammers they - each and every one of them - were at some point "bigger than me", in a particular "media's eye" view of the table.
mircea_popescu: but then i'm the guy worth a billion dollars, and if you add their loot all together, you don't get a billion.
mircea_popescu: way to turn "more" into definitely less, as it were.
Duffer1: thank you
Duffer1: how to remove yourself from the equation..
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9700 @ 0.00063366 = 6.1465 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4000 @ 0.00063366 = 2.5346 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 187 @ 0.001 = 0.187 BTC
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the scammers who 'appear big' are reminiscent of the well-known factoid of dynamite being considerably less energetic, per gram, than gasoline
mircea_popescu: :p
asciilifeform: but the everyday person wouldn't suspect it
mircea_popescu: hence why it took a \while for fuelbombs
asciilifeform: 'my candle burns at both ends, it will not last the night; but ah my foes, and oh my friends, it gives a lovely light!'
asciilifeform: flashiness has very little to do with actual use
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: remember your observations about power plant?
mircea_popescu: yeah
asciilifeform: $1B, in every major city, and no advertising; no one thinks of it, or hears of it on tv, unless it burns down
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7150 @ 0.00062972 = 4.5025 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2013/the-stuple/ << the treatment.
ozbot: The stuple. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
asciilifeform: good sum.
asciilifeform: also reminds me of orlov's essay on 'fufflers' and their symbiotic relation with the 'victims'
asciilifeform: (http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2009/03/welcome-to-fuffland.html)
mircea_popescu: fluffers ?!
mircea_popescu: you mean the girl on the porn set ?
asciilifeform: good 'onion' piece:
asciilifeform: http://www.duffelblog.com/2013/12/mikhail-kalashnikov-dead/
mircea_popescu: lmao! re your club orlov : i was persuaded to add a disclaimer to my article, which reads "but before you run to the interpretative races be advised that the “money” sybol is used correctly in its proper sense, rather than in what mistaken cvasi-definition you might have intuited for yourself, and this use colors the meaning of “time” too."
mircea_popescu: then i follow your link, and what do i see ? "In the unfolding global financial collapse, it is not just our accounts and balance sheets that come up short, but our language as well."
mircea_popescu: word.
mircea_popescu: it's not the language tho. it's the minds. language is but a cloth.
asciilifeform: he was the fellow who introduced me to 'bezzle'
mircea_popescu: yeah, i think i read this before
mircea_popescu: prolly cuz you linked it.
mircea_popescu: "It seems that the Russians are better-equipped to survive financial collapse than just about anyone else. They have formidable reserves of gold and foreign currency to soften the downward slide. " << actually, the romanians have more.
mircea_popescu: isarescu squirreled away ~127 tons of the stuff, and that's >6 grams per capita.
asciilifeform: possibly mongolia (or some other entirely un-drilled place) is the real champ.
mircea_popescu: russia does not hold 1bn tons
mircea_popescu: i mean, 1k tons, 1bn grams
mircea_popescu: (Perhaps this psychological mechanism accounts for the fact the Anglo-Saxon tribe still has the vestigial word but no longer remembers its meaning.)
mircea_popescu: yeah, this article should be linked more often.
asciilifeform: mr. o neglects to mention another well-known meaning of фуфло - 'arsehole', specifically in the prison-buggery sense of the word.
mircea_popescu: he has a point in that i suspect it's perhaps the easiest way to explain to the layman in laymen terms what exactly is the difference separating "me" or "us" from "them". teh fuffle readily makes sense or not at all.
asciilifeform: new prisoner is asked to gamble, he asks what the stakes will be, told:
asciilifeform: 'фуфло'
mircea_popescu: lol
asciilifeform: he things 'nothing'
asciilifeform: (one common meaning outside the prison)
asciilifeform: and plays.
asciilifeform: loses.
mircea_popescu: did any newbie ever win a cell gambling ?
asciilifeform: doubt it.
mircea_popescu: easy to stack games, especially when you have the excuse of material scarcity the prison offers
mircea_popescu: and also the abundance of time it generously provides.
asciilifeform: it is said that the newbie's mistake is always and without exception: playing on borrowed cash.
asciilifeform: borrowed -> has to be repaid. in cash, or фуфло.
mircea_popescu: basically it's the United Fuffles of America
mircea_popescu: this is a better model, they're not so much into socialism per se
mircea_popescu: they're into anything that may enable fuffling.
benkay: united stats of confidence games
mircea_popescu: the old jew joke, which is why trilema has been making the point since the naughts.
mircea_popescu: dja know it ?
asciilifeform: which one? could be any of 100...
mircea_popescu: well let me recount it for the public record anyway.
mircea_popescu: Itzhak is a respectable moneylender in the small neighbourhood of Fool's Crossing.
mircea_popescu: one day an attractive young widdow that can't repay her husband's debts agrees to put out, like every other day, except with different girls.
mircea_popescu: so as to not agress the public morals, itzhak upon living her house picks up a worthless old smoked over painting, and declares it to be the payment for the debt.
mircea_popescu: the woman smiles and they part on friendly terms.
mircea_popescu: his younger brother hirsz, a respectable moneylender in the slightly larger small neighbourhood of Sucker's Lament visits one day
mircea_popescu: he notes the shitty painting, and asks his brother wherefore.
mircea_popescu: itzhak tells him the exorbitant sum he has paid, and some theory about its artistic value.
mircea_popescu: the next week, hirsz is beating down itzhak's door. for he must have the painting, it is keeping it up at night that his older brother in the pooer neighbourhood should have the piece of art!
mircea_popescu: and so he buys it, in cash, for a hefty premium.
mircea_popescu: returning the call, itzhak buys the painting back a few weeks later,
mircea_popescu: and then in a couple months when he was building a new stable, his brother buys the painting back from him, at yet a heftier premium
mircea_popescu: the painting moves back and forth at ever increasing nominal values among the families, as their capital needs dictate
pizzaman1337: MP's stories always have me on the edge of my seat
mircea_popescu: until one day, a young girl one has hired for the purpose of cleanning the house in between polishing the cock
mircea_popescu: accidentally spills potash all over the painting
mircea_popescu: which now is no more.
mircea_popescu: quoth the distraught brothers "that stupid girl. and what great business we had with that painting"
mircea_popescu: indeed. a secure asset of ever-appreciating value, who'd not want fuffel on his books ?
asciilifeform: sequel!
mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu: no scripts are new...
asciilifeform: another servant goes on a bender
asciilifeform: vomits over the now-empty canvas
asciilifeform: another masterpiece is born...
asciilifeform: the story resumes from 0.
mircea_popescu: you must be careful however, the lynchpin of this story is
mircea_popescu: " so as to not agress the public morals"
mircea_popescu: this only works in places which have "public morals".
asciilifeform: correct.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1363 @ 0.00011111 = 0.1514 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 7420 @ 0.00010708 = 0.7945 BTC [-] {7}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.289 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 10 @ 0.049 = 0.49 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: and this story made me appreciate a major point.
mircea_popescu: intellectually, the main reason my blog exists is that i hate repeating myself.
mircea_popescu: however, i've retold this joke dozens of times, and it seems to have gotten better every time.
mircea_popescu: it makes me realise that in becoming very able to preserve through application of technology, we are losing the incentive to re-write and recall, which probably explains why we suck.
asciilifeform: just as everyone derisively laughs at 'cut and paste' programmers
mircea_popescu: just so.
benkay: avoiding social media of all sorts has made me a better conversationalist by giving me the opportunity to tell and retell a story or a pitch, refining it on based on each recipient.
benkay: contrast this with people who write jokes once for twitter and are forever doomed to hear "oh yeah i read that on your social whatever" when they want to iterate and improve.
mircea_popescu: that part is important. you have to understand your story well enough to be able to contextualize it in different contexts.
mircea_popescu: no three ring binder or company policy can help you there.
mircea_popescu: in the end, money is an expression of culture. the chase for money in se is not much unlike the making of worthless paintings as a "commercial venture".
mircea_popescu: without the attractive widow...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "Unlike proper retirement systems, which transfer a percentage of earnings from working-age people directly to retirees, this fuffled scheme takes these earnings and invests them in some fuffles" << do explain ?!
asciilifeform: this is how it actually happens in u.s.
mircea_popescu: is the man insane ?! or am i ?
mircea_popescu: no but the other end. a proper system is bismarck's ponzi ?!
mircea_popescu: how doth he reason.
asciilifeform: they try to talk you into dropping some pre-tax pay into a 'fund', where it turns into stocks, etc
asciilifeform: you can't touch it without massive penalty until you're a certain age
mircea_popescu: look i know how 401k/iras etc work. after all, we wouldn't have our friendly second market without them
mircea_popescu: the question is, what sort of a fool contemplates the notion that direct transfer better, let alone proper.
asciilifeform: in orlov's world, a proper system is where you rely on family to feed you in old age
asciilifeform: (or throw you through the ice, as the case may be)
mircea_popescu: no, he says "transfer a percentage of earnings from working-age people directly to retirees"
mircea_popescu: this is the von bismarck model of ponzi pensions.
asciilifeform: he's thinking of the slightly less broken soviet machine
mircea_popescu: pay 5% all your life, get whatever's there
mircea_popescu: how is it less broken ?
mircea_popescu: it
mircea_popescu: s not less broken. in the russian crisis of the 90s pensioneers bore most of the burden
asciilifeform: because it was a straight tontine, without a casino in the loop
mircea_popescu: except the politburo spent from the tontine all the damn time.
asciilifeform: they sure did. but that was collapse.
mircea_popescu: so it didhave a casino on the top.
asciilifeform: at some point 'the bezzle' becomes real, the cartoon wolf looks down and finally obeys gravity, goes splat off the cliff.
mircea_popescu: i must petition to have that phrase struck.
mircea_popescu: do you know how to contact the guy ?
asciilifeform: his firs name dot last name at gmail, i think
mircea_popescu: well what are those lol
asciilifeform: sometimes he answers. wrote to him about stirling engines once
Duffer1: this orlov article reads a lot like our discussion on real estate rent
asciilifeform: dmitry orlov
mircea_popescu: a ty
asciilifeform: he lives on a ship, and doesn't have net access every day
asciilifeform: so he might take a while.
Duffer1: "Ideally, the initial transaction serves as the basis of a permanent arrangement, with the victim roped into an installment plan, which keeps the payments flowing even after the fuffle itself has crumbled into a pile of dust"
mircea_popescu: must have ipads
asciilifeform: orlov's point wasn't that ussr was a paradise, but that it was a more honest sort of open air prison than u.s.
asciilifeform: fewer pretenses at 'you own your home - went broke? now get out'
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 569 @ 0.001 = 0.569 BTC
mircea_popescu: but calling it proper ?
asciilifeform: since ussr never really had a working economy, economic collapse wasn't the apocalyptic disaster it would be in a civilized country.
mircea_popescu: it's one tyhing to say better
mircea_popescu: haha, i wouldn't go as far as to say that the litmus for "working economy" is "consumer sector" tbh
asciilifeform: it's more like: you go to a basement casino, and instead of letting you play, they club you over the head and take yer wallet
mircea_popescu: obviously the consumer thinks so, clearly visible i nthings such as "bitcoin must be a sort of supermarket payment option to really exist"
asciilifeform: and then you say to a chum: 'unlike a proper casino, where the house keeps X, they...'
mircea_popescu: but no, he said the converse : unlike a fluffy casino, where they let you play, a proper casino takes your clothes and then makes you put out a show for their porn franchise.
mircea_popescu: i mean i guess it's proper in the sense of "proper fucked"
asciilifeform: orlov's painfully-repeated point is that systems with infinite growth assumptions baked in are worse than straight theft
mircea_popescu: "It may be clear to us that fuffles must be eradicated." < ha! you can't eradicate these any more than you can eradicate moles
mircea_popescu: if yo uget them rare enough courtier chicks will start adding mole stickers to their cleavage
asciilifeform: the best you can do is to put up nets and keep them out, like mosquitos
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but the direct transfer system has infinite population growth baked right in
asciilifeform: sure does.
asciilifeform: i don't disagree with your objection re: 'proper retirement'
mircea_popescu: terry gilliam's mole cartoon is eerily prescient.
asciilifeform: orlov is a reluctant, dour sort of 'statist', he sees mega-empires as inevitable, but likewise their collapse.
asciilifeform: hence his discussions re: how, when they fuck the populace, using some form of lube would be proper and decent.
mircea_popescu: mega empires are quite evitable.
mircea_popescu: i think the schelling point actually is warlordoms
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3630 @ 0.00063366 = 2.3002 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: this mega empire business is a momentary distraction.
asciilifeform: orlov's prediction is that warlordoms will become schelling points again once various energy-hungry weapons systems stop being affordable
mircea_popescu: said weapons (if you mean the atomic bomb) are already useless.
asciilifeform: he plays with this in his '5 stages' book.
mircea_popescu: they rely on some very convenient separations that are no longer factual.
asciilifeform: the nukes rust, yes. the airplanes still work, for the time being.
mircea_popescu: no but i mean, bomb what ?
asciilifeform: invading flotillas, i think, is the remaining scenario
mircea_popescu: and invade what ?
mircea_popescu: the only place where that works is fuckland, and fuckland a) doesn't care and b) is tougher than you and will fuck you.
asciilifeform: china/siberian oil; whoever/american carcasses for sausage ?
mircea_popescu: afghanistan showed both points to both "megaempires"
mircea_popescu: i would not invade the us atm even if they paid me.
mircea_popescu: you get stuck administering it.
mircea_popescu: baghdad has cost in peace more than it cost in war.
Duffer1: but but freedom
asciilifeform: that's because they stuck with the 'hearts and minds' fluff, instead of 'remove unwanted bioforms and build drill platforms.'
Duffer1: shit where's my fuffle
Duffer1: brb
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you're very much mistaken. this is the us army propaganda as to why they failed.
mircea_popescu: in point of fact they stguck with no such fluff.
mircea_popescu: they simply did not have the ability to do any better.
asciilifeform: surely they still have at least one working neutron bomb in a warehouse somewhere.
mircea_popescu: the equation is quite simple : you kill more bioforms, you get your convoys bombed more.
mircea_popescu: tyhere's a maximum bombing of convoys you can bear,
mircea_popescu: and that limits how many bioforms you kill.
Duffer1: i'm pretty sure they didn't intend to do any better, there was no plan other than 'go there'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and then how much do you pay haliburton to clean up and run the platforms ?
mircea_popescu: Duffer1 how'd you know if there was ? plans are usually secret.
Duffer1: the end result speaks for itself imo
asciilifeform: probably cheaper than what they actually ended up doing (being clobbered for nothing)
mircea_popescu: the end result of a failure is not indicative of the absence of a plan more than of the poor quality of a present plan tho.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform only cheaper on a % basis.
mircea_popescu: but there's a limit on how much cost you can bear, which caps your results
mircea_popescu: in this case at 0.
mircea_popescu: war is always a game of "there's a limit of how much X you can bear"
asciilifeform: dollar for dollar, you'd get more energy by drilling at sea. the point, i think, was to display force
asciilifeform: similar to soviet invasion of afghanistan, actually
Duffer1: you're not wrong, but they didn't secure the peace, they didn't even secure the oil fields right away
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and that display failed. similarly, in both cases, for the same reason.
mircea_popescu: it showed force in the sense of making everyone realise they must be killed.
Duffer1: it seems like they created a debacle for the sake of being evil
mircea_popescu: it did not show force in the sense of making anyone likely to not try.
asciilifeform: afghan, 'graveyard of empires', etc
mircea_popescu: basically our colonies, be their russia or the us, being a little new, still have to learn on own skin the history of medieval europe.
mircea_popescu: there's shows of force and then there's shows of force. ask d'este.
asciilifeform: one russian writer, who grunted in a., opined that 'we were the kid that lifts the weight bar, pushes it up a little, then crushed underneath. afghan is a weight bar.'
mircea_popescu: forza managed to anihilate his entire house in a generation by simply not knowing the difference.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 145 @ 0.04999999 = 7.25 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9800 @ 0.00063773 = 6.2498 BTC [+] {2}
copumpkin: man, mpoe isn't doing as well as it was
mircea_popescu: hey look at that, all the way to summer.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28576 @ 0.00064345 = 18.3872 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13200 @ 0.00069376 = 9.1576 BTC [+] {2}
benkay: does mpoe track the coins or do the coins track mpoe?
benkay: questions for the ages.
mircea_popescu: i dunno man. i am looking forward to when i'm very old someone finally figuring this shit out and writing a clever paper.
copumpkin: I guess mpoe order book isn't very deep
copumpkin: so price isn't very meaningful
mircea_popescu: !t m s.mpoe
assbot: [MPEX:S.MPOE] 1D: 0.00062972 / 0.00078418 / 0.00084704 (320984 shares, 251.71 BTC), 7D: 0.00062972 / 0.00086521 / 0.00091394 (4812961 shares, 4,164.25 BTC), 30D: 0.00062972 / 0.00086925 / 0.00091394 (15872706 shares, 13,797.37 BTC)
mircea_popescu: well... the spot price no. the averages however...
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HMF] 80 @ 0.02390124 = 1.9121 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.2900002 = 0.58 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.2900002 = 0.58 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: in unrelated news, bitcoin's rift guild is #4 largest on teh server.
Duffer1: wtb fallout mmo
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 37 @ 0.05 = 1.85 BTC [+]
damian666__: Good comparison chart (btce vs. gox vs. btcchina) at http://btc.2097.com
Duffer1: yes damian666 i'll click your link
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 11 @ 0.28327454 = 3.116 BTC [-] {3}
benkay: much technical analysis
kakobrekla: very money
thestringpuller: much crypto
benkay: !t m s.mpoe
assbot: [MPEX:S.MPOE] 1D: 0.00062972 / 0.00078254 / 0.00084704 (311715 shares, 243.93 BTC), 7D: 0.00062972 / 0.00086429 / 0.00091394 (4712687 shares, 4,073.17 BTC), 30D: 0.00062972 / 0.00086926 / 0.00091394 (15871006 shares, 13,796.03 BTC)
benkay: !l m s.mpoe
assbot: Last trade for S.MPOE on MPEX was at 0.00069376 BTC [+]